The religion and politics post got a lot of responses, which was good.
I still don't really get the "forcing ones beliefs" thing on people.
It does seem that when it is Christians saying something pubicly, they get that label. But anytime there is a disagreement, usually at least one side wins and one side loses.
Ive said all along that a community has a right to set standards, whatever they may be. I once lived on Hilton Head Island, where the entire city was a covenant type situation. You could not park your car on the street period. Businesses could have only small signs, and no lighting. Was hard to even find McDonalds at night if you didn't already know where it was.
So were they forcing their beliefs?
Everyone has certain rights, but at times rights collide, and you have conflict.
Maybe people have a right to have beer at Arkalalah, and maybe people have a right to not to have to be exposed to it. Its pretty hard to have both at the same time.
What if someone wanted to open a place for naked dancers and dirty books and such on Summit Street. They would have a right to I suppose because that is not illegal. But, why would the community not have a right to say they didn't want it?
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why don't you ask the folks up at the city hall why they are getting a new city logo, but did not inform or include the public this time? when they first brought it up, they said it would be a community contest, but I think they only included the employees in on this decision. Last time, all people in the city were allowed to submit their art work and a winner was chosen-as it should have been done this time as it is everyone's city and this logo represents ALL of us, not just the city hall and the employees. Hopefully, this isn't too scary for the Traveler to look into, as most things up at city hall or the police force seem to be. Come on, march up there and see what they have 'chosen and decided' for us this time without asking our opinion or in this case, looking at our art work
Ill check on that.
I don't know why they didnt consult the public on that and I wasn't here when they did before.
Can you give me a specific incident where we were scared to take on the city, the schools, or anyone else?
You know, insulting someone usually doesn't make them very sympathetic to your cause. :)
"...government of the people, for the people and by the people..."
Of course we can set boundaries and laws as to how we want our society to behave. That's what we call laws.
My rights go as far as they infringe upon yours. Can I burn trash in my back yard? Not if the community at large and for the greater good says no.
We all have rights. I think Christians in particular are labeled unfairly. In a particular town in MO., I'm told that the word Christmas is talked of being removed because a Muslim woman complained. Question: Why do other religions not get labeled like Christians? Well, most people won't do it because they saw what happened a year or so ago because someone wrote an offensive cartoon. They know Christians won't say anything, and they certainly won't go rioting because of a cartoon. We all have rights. As long as it doesn't trample someone else's . I like Christmas. Should it be removed? If, and only if the population at large says so. Not because of 1 person. That's tyranny. My writing is NOT about Muslims. It's about rights.
We all have rights.
I personally could care less if they have a beer garden or not. I don't drink, so I won't be there. I do think the community could be a little more civil about the debate, though. If they would, it would settle out & 1 side or the other would win. It's the American way.
knightrules1
I like Christmas. Should it be removed?
Great post. I think youre right on the money,
The Christian way is to love people, and sometimes people abuse that.
The Christmas thing is one of my favorite soapboxes :)
im sure ill get on it sooner or later.
james
Personally, I am pretty much sick of hearing about the beer garden. Can't the Traveler put some type of statute of limitations on letters to the editor :). In the essence of been there done that let's move on to some other outrageous event that is happening in town. I think this is at least the second time this Pearl Turner woman has wrote in.
Anyway, since the rights debate is framed by the beer garden I guess I will take the bait.
The last time I checked you do not have a right to not be offended/not exposed to something that is perfectly legal. If that is the case my rights are violated on a daily basis and I should be calling the ACLU. You do have the right to avoid that objectionable activity. Last time I checked no one was holding a gun to your head and forcing people to enter the beer garden.
You also have the right to speak out against something that you do not like. As I stated before, along with that right comes the responsibility of taking criticism. You don't get a pass from criticism just because you are a Christian.
Christians, should and do speak out about things in their world they find objectionable. That does not necessarily mean the majority of "the community" feel that way nor does it mean the objectionable activity is going to be stopped.
Secondly, can you please site some facts about the case in MO. The argument that "I heard" they were going to take away the word Christmas because of 1 woman doesn't hold much water for me. If they are removing it from Government buildings then, yes, I completely agree. Government should not be endorsing a particular type of religion. Seeing how they cannot stop a private citizen from expressing their religion than I doubt the whole town is being forced to remove Christmas.
Every year, I hear some isolated story that circulates about how someone wants to remove Christmas. And every year, Christmas comes and goes and it is plastered all over the place. Where is the outrage about how it is being used in such a commercial manner? Corporations are the ones who are stealing the word Christmas from you not people of other faiths. So I tend to not get too much in a huff over reactionary statements that sometimes have little do with fact.
If the government is trying to stop you from displaying Christmas at your home, place of business or at church then I will be fighting the good fight right along with you.
To: "Tired..."
Good thoughts. I believe you & I agree more than we disagree. I am a Christian. I too have heard enough discussion about beer gardens. Please let Arkalalah come quickly so we can get it over with. Sheesh!
It is a crying shame how Christmas has been reduced to only a business event. I really don't think most people buying all the stuff really give Christ much credit for giving us this day. Yet, in a backwards sort of way, they are giving Him honor. So, not much I can do about that. I just refuse to get caught up in it.
Oh, I found some info about the City that I mentioned in previous post.
(was mistaken, wasn't MO, but IL)
I don't think there is some calculated plot by anyone in particular. I believe it is a function of our society.
"Accept anything, everyone has rights, if it doesn't cause me immediate pain, I'd better not say anything, or i'll be accused of being intolerant."
God is the most intolerant person we ever met. Right is right & wrong is wrong. We are slowly building a "politically correct" prison from which none of us will be able to escape. I hope you can understand what I mean. I think it is a great privilege to be an American. God Bless America!
Let's not take it for granted, & let our voice be heard on the issues we think important. Everyone else is.
knightrules1
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/local_story_271104049.html
looks like my link was faulty. Try this one
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/local_story_271104049.html
knightrules1
So you proved my point exactly with the link. No where in that article does it state she wanted "Christmas" removed from the schools. She asked that Ramadan be celebrated, too. If you look at the last line 30% of the district is Arab and many of them practice Islam. This is hardly an unreasonable request for one person. If 30% are Arab are you telling me that the entire 70% of the district are white practicing Christians?
She also asked that the children be separated during lunch because of the fasting during Ramadan, which ends today. This doesn't even happen at the same time as Christmas. Again, she didn't ask that everyone should fast. I don't see the problem with this as kids were always pulled out of stuff in school for religious reasons. Specifically, sex ed, watching certain movies and any other thing they deemed inappropriate.
Again, please state the facts in the case correctly. It was the school board that made the policy and all they said was to tone down the celebrations not stop them completely. They eventually backtracked. Neither one of her requests was "get rid of Christmas". And it certainly wasn't the whole town. She didn't ask to have the menu changed at the school or that any other children be forced to observe Ramadan. With a 30% population of Arabs it is actually a pretty good idea to at least acknowledge it and talk about Ramadan so that other children can better understand their Muslim counterparts.
Personally, I don't think any religious holidays should be observed in school but that is an entirely different debate.
Every year, I hear some isolated story that circulates about how someone wants to remove Christmas. And every year, Christmas comes and goes and it is plastered all over the place. Where is the outrage about how it is being used in such a commercial manner? Corporations are the ones who are stealing the word Christmas from you not people of other faiths.
>>>
when its the same people raising objections to the same things every year, it can hardly be called "isolated"
Christmas is a Christian holiday plain and simple.
you must admit there are people who are trying to rid ANY mention of christianity from public view.
I agree about it being over commercialized.
Many Christians feel persecuted over this.
And im starting to think they are right.
Someone at the paper actually complained to me because i used the word Christmas in a headline ...
It makes us feel as though they think we are dirty. I mean really, its getting to where the word "Christ" is dirty in society.
If youll notice. Say an athlete is interviewed after the superbowl. He says "I thank the Lord Jesus for helping me" it will likely get edited out... or there will be criticism.
If he says "F&ck yea we were the sh*t baby. We beat their asses"
no one will raise an eye brow...
sooooo how do you expect christians to feel about that ...
I really believe that there are people using "Separation of church and state" as an excuse to keep Christianity out of public view ...
and ultimately to stifle the voice of christianity.
Even here in arkansas city. I ve got this music festival going on .. and people have raised questions because the musicians are christians and it is on public property.
i mean, what ... are we obscene ?
For me to even have to explain that to people shows me that there is persecution out there.
Just for the record.
We are on our way to being registered as a non profit organization ...
We followed the rules the city has in place to be able to use their property. Those rules are the same for anyone. We were not treated any differently than anyone else.
But for it to even matter if it is "Christian" or not ... says a lot doesn't it?
Personally, I don't think any religious holidays should be observed in school but that is an entirely different debate.
Ahhh that is a different debate.
if you want to go there we should probably start a new thread.
I think all religious holidays should be celebrated if you have members of that religion in school ... or at least recognized if not celebrated.
if you have no pagans, you dont need to note the solstices, for example ... but if you do ... then why not show what the solstice is and why it matters to pagans...
(using the word pagan in a non-derogatory way here, it is a recognized religion)
Maybe a religion in school. or in public . debate would be fun ? :)
Anyone want to go there ?
"Personally, I don't think any religious holidays should be observed in school but that is an entirely different debate."
Now, I get it.
knightrules1
In reading the comments and thinking a little, it seems to me that we are frightened. Those who have been the mainstream of America, religiously and culturally, are watching it all disappear and it frightens us. We don't understand what is happening but feel an increasing loss of identity and self. A natural reaction is anger. We are angry but don't know where to direct our anger. Beer gardens, Moslems, "them" - we are railing against an amorphous, uncomfortable change.
we are railing against an amorphous, uncomfortable change.
well said ..
but not all change is good.
we dont have to accept change.
in the early part of the 1900's there was a huge socialist move in the united states .. it had some momentum.
that was a change that tried to happen but was successfully stopped.
as a culture or society, we can say "yes" or "no" to any change.. and we can try to make changes.
Resisting change is not good or bad .. but some changes are not good.
j
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