Check out today's paper. I went to that meeting Thursday night where the state historic commission lady talked about money available to people in the historic district - the downtown area - to help them fix up their buildings.
Tax credits are available to pay as much as 45 percent of the cost. To qualify you have to be in the district and your building has to be 50 years old. Thats a combination of federal and state money. Cool thing about the state part, is that state tax credits can be sold and are very flexible. The fed stuff is a bit more complex, but its still there.
There are also grants available, and that is competitive and not everyone gets approved.
However, the thing that was interesting to me, was the fact that almost no one has applied.
She said there has been ZERO, NONE, NOT A SINGLE ONE, application from Arkansas City this decade. There have been less than five since the historic district was created in the 80s.
There is also a great tax break from the city for people who do work on their buildings,
The Burford has a grant, and thats about the only one that is active.
She also said that since there have been so few from Arkansas City to apply, that would give Arkansas City people and edge in the application process for grants. The tax credits are available if you qualify, its there for the asking.
Another excuse bites the dust. What will they come up with next?
Im just tired of people making excuses. We need to fix up the city, have some pride and make the city what we all want it to be.
In the words of Bob Dylan
"get out of the way if you cant lend your hand
cause the times they are a changing."
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James, do you have this ladies contact info or e-mail? I am curious to find what money is available to homeowners in AC. Some of our homes were built in the 1900 range and are still standing but in need of repair. If any would apply for the historic register, wouldn't it be neat to see them brought back to their original grandeur?
Her name is Katrina Ringler
(785)-272-8681, ext. 240.
Help is also available online at www.cultural_resources@kshs.org
Her program only applies to buildings in the district, but she could probably give good info on whats available for homes in other programs.
Maybe getting on the register is a good first step?
great idea... there are so many old, quaint homes in AC that could be beautiful if the owners had the money and the means to fix them up... even the little bungalows have great potential.
So I hear Sybrant said he would never buy another building in this town as long as the current commission is in power. Doesn't that pretty much guarantee that the current commissioners will get elected by the people as often as they run as long as Sybrant is still living?
Doesn't that pretty much guarantee that the current commissioners will get elected by the people as often as they run as long as Sybrant is still living?
>>>>>>>>>>
Interesting choices.
Will that overcome people's memory of Lowes?
Love em or hate em, this commission does stir it up.
Ahh, Jim Sybrant, just the name brings to mind a powerful man. I understand he was downright bullyish at the meeting. trying to control the meeting to get at the commission and Matt Rowland. He even went as far to say that the tax credits would do his mother no good since you have to keep the property for 5 years and she might not be here. WELL JIM HERE IS A CLUE: TRANSFER TO PORPERTY TO A LIVING TRUST FOR $100.00. THERE....ISN'T THAT BETTER? NOW THE TRUST CAN OWN THE PROPERTY FOR 5 YEARS!! Maybe you are not so powerful afterall...any lawyer could have told you that? For that matter, the trust department at Home National Bank could tell you that.
Please stop trying to bully the city, and spend some money to fix up your property. Err...sorry, your mother's property.
Good day sir.
Hey,
Don't mention Jim Sybrant and Home National Bank on the blogs. They will call the Traveler and threaten to sue them.
-- A Travler Staff Member
No they only call and threaten to sue when Ark City Industries are mentioned. LOL
on the topic posted
Why would anyone want to aquire grants or short term tax credits by fixing up thier home when the Long term return is negitive?
for those unable to see the light, here is why land owners do not repair properties.
When you do a 35,000 dollar rehab to a home or office building you may get a tax credit of $2,700 for 10 years, at the end of that ten years and though the life of this tax credit you valuation continues to rise at a higher rate than your adjusted saveings, there for useing a grant or expecting a tax refund is not a good thing.
Most owners of Historic Buildings find them Cheep investments as storage facilities,,,, this is illegal in most cities and should be here as well, some of these historic buildings are tax shelters for the wealthy, and you can not claim depreciation for tax deductions if you are not letting the building deteriorate.
I can understand not painting your home and fixing up the outside, as appraisors are out daily checking to see where they can add on another dime to our tax burdon, overbearing taxs such as we have and I assure you will be increaseing, eat away at the equity you have in your property, makeing your investment Nule and void and in some cases makeing investing as a homeowner a stupid move financialy..
There is nothing free in this world! there is no money for nothing!!! it is a short term trick by your government to get you to increase the value for long term tax increasement..
How can we solve this delima?
( you cant join the club)
we can do this by buying cheep delapadated buildings, homes, continue letting them deteriorate, claim depreciation on taxs to offset other investments that grow at a better rate than the tax burdon, and in the end sell them multiple times by contract with substacial downpayments from the buyer, and take them back at the first default.
Also old Historic buildings can be purchased, stripped of thier antique fixtures which can be sold to buyers on the east coast for double the original cost of the building, then we have a building that has paid for its self and is indeed very cheep storage and an excelent tax shelter.
Its title is Business and profit aquisition, as long as you lay down for it in your community it will continue... there are tons of info commercials and fly by night programs teaching us how to do this... you need to get your city more involved in curbing this type of profit manipulation by investors as this kind of investing drains your community of its equity that your forefathers have built.
If anyone is interested in a course on how to keep your taxs from eating up your equity, I may offer a few classes, Not free of course
James,
Very nice article in the paper, very well written and right on point.
I must say the commission has my next vote.
On the topic posted:
Did you make it to the meeting James wrote about? Seems like a good deal to me.
When you do a 35,000 dollar rehab to a home or office building you may get a tax credit of $2,700 for 10 years, at the end of that ten years and though the lif
>>>>>>>
It would be more like $17,000 in tax credits which you would get as you finish the project.
You could also sell the state portion for cash.
Ive never heard of wanting your property value to go down. SOrry, thats just .... not very smart.
"and you can not claim depreciation for tax deductions if you are not letting the building deteriorate."
That really has little to do with depreciation. Depreciation is taken based on what you paid for the building vs. it's average useful life.
So, for example, if I buy a building for my business for $100,000 and the avg. useful life is 25 years then I can claim $4000 a year in depreciation over the 25years(assuming straight line depreciation).
It doesn't really matter if the market value of the building decreases/increases. I don't get to keep depreciating the building forever just because it may be worth less than what I paid for it or because is in disrepair. It has to do with what I "paid" for the building not what it is worth.
In many cases, I would assume that many of the downtown business owners have long depreciated the asset.
In Sybrant's case they have owned the building for at least 40 years and probably didn't pay more than 10,000 dollars for it. The depreciation expense would hardly offset the taxes, which are probably somewhere around $4,000+ a year.
It more boils down to the fact that the building owners can't really generate enough income on the buildings to generate the expenses of fixing up a building. If they put $40,000 into fixing up the building they would still be able to garner the same $500 a month in rent.
With that being said, it is an absolute shame they were not maintained properly from the start and it is the owner's fault that it will cost them so much more now.
Three quickies: My wife and I attended the "Shakespeare in 90 minutes..." at Wilson Park Friday night. Something to do in Ark City and FREE! It was most entertaining and a great effort by the folks involved. Thank you.
Next: What/Who is/are the Ark City Industries? The term keeps popping up positively and negatively. Lastly: Come on down to CIty Hall Monday evening a watch the Zoning Board and Planning Commission in action. Don't get all of your news from this blog.
Sure hope enough of us can put our heads together and come up with at least some suggestions to help with the older buildings around town.
I was the Poster on Topic
I have seen how many of you responded and it is obvious that, you do not understand how to use the market. some of your cooments are correct on Depreciation, however your applying them to traditional Bankers idealism on loan value not on property valuation, which is a mystery to most and cynical argument of Big brother power to others, however it can all be tamed and made profitable,,,\
James states Ive never heard of wanting your property value to go down. SOrry, thats just .... not very smart.
I am sorry James but i want my assesed propety value to go down as much as possible way below what i paid for my property,,, this is where most of you get off the boat, while my property taxs had decreased over the last six years and yours have doubled,,,did it make my Building actualy worth any less when i sell it?? no assesed value and true value are two seperate dogs and are not know about at the bank, the Country tax office knows about them and tries to get you to be stupid enough to get you to pay taxs on true value, but that illegal and you can beat it if you have your eggs in the right basket,,,, Howmany times have you went to fight your tax valuation and the guy in front of you says hey this is great my house is just went up in value 30k,,, i laugh at him and tell him he is stupid, true value is money in hand that is offered for the home or building, assesed value is what the fourmula calls for on sq footage and building type,,,,
That is all the assesor can look at the outside of a building, what happened inside is none of thier business, but if you vulonteer that information they can tax you on it..
I think its funny when i meet people like bankers and financial advisors who really do not have a clue of how to do thier job but are willing to try and make you think they know it all
There are two businessmen that i know of that own 85% of the slum homes and Business buildings in this city,, do you think they got them by listening to bankers and small town news paper editors.
Do you think these business men amkie less money on thier slum lands than the best kept rental homes in the city, truth is they make more and do it for nothing,,
Aquireing wealth is not so difficult! learning how to keep it is a tremendous adjustment in critical thinking,, and property tax is one of the largest thives that needs to be defeated to survive when juggleing large property accumulations
seriously I've had enough. who CARES? we are going to be dealing with the same cr@p in 20 years. same story different players. OR maybe the majority of the people will be willing to embrace and support change in the face of strong opposition from the likes of Sybrant and other similar self-supporting over city-enhancing characters.
If enough people can get themselves mad enough ... it could happen.
Change can happen, but its going to take people that will stand up an take action.
Good Point! But, mad isnt' the answer! "Players" is the answer!
The attitude IMHO should be to leave the cities/county in better condition for the next generations
and to improve quality of life and promote growth!
That is not an easy task considering the Baby Boom generation has already started to retire. (BTW we've only known that for 60 some years!)
To be effective progress would need to be not only an attitude
but also achieveable/attainable goals done area wide.
Good Point! But, mad isnt' the answer! "Players" is the answer!
Lots of times it takes getting people mad to get them to do anything.
Mad itself isnt the answer, but if it gets people started .... they might become "players"
i want my assesed propety value to go down as much as possible way below what i paid for my property,,,
If you let your property go, how will it increase in value when you do want to sell.
AND do you have a right to make the town look bad, when that impacts every other citizen in the city, and anyone that might pass through?
THATs a question that needs debating :)
"If you let your property go, how will it increase in value when you do want to sell?"
People seem to be very confused about depreciation and property taxes.
If an owner depreciates a property, it is depreciated from its purchase price. If an owner has fully depreciated a property, there is no further deduction for the property.
So to say that Sybrant is using the building as a tax writeoff is a misunderstanding of the tax code.
It don't work that way.
Property tax is based on fair market value.
I've met a number of people who, after being reviewed by the tax office, actually rejoice that their property is valued above what they think they could sell it for. It don't work that way either. They are being conned into overpaying taxes. It is stupid.
If the tax office values the property at a higher price than the market would support for an unpressured sale, then they are cheating you and violating state statute.
If you have a business property (or any other property for that matter), the value of the property will be determined by a licensed appraiser "at the time you sell it", who will measure it, check comparables, etc. It will be required by the title company and insurance and the property won't sell without it.
The value of a property and the potential sales price has absolutely nothing to do with the tax office "appraisal". A high tax "appraisal" will not change the price of a property in any way.
If a building is over appraised by the tax office, it may make it harder to sell the property. Buyers would look at the tax bill as a expense, and would not look at the tax "appraisal" as an asset.
It is possible and even likely that a property could and should be tax appraised at a lower price then you bought it for. Especially if the market changes, which it has. It is all about what other similar properties "have actually sold for", not what you paid, and certainly not what you "want to sell it for".
I have bought and sold business and property for years and not once used a title comapany or a rip off appraiser.
we can do business at the county court house with a signature and cash we do not need nor is it required to have appraisals or insurrance, deeds are transfurable in the state of kansas with cash in hand..
the aprriasal is a minimal indication of what a property is worth to you, there may be a burried treasure on that property that makes it worth ten times to you than what the actual land or property is worth,, we all see value in different things, one may be a view of the countryside the other may be a corner lot the other may be close to gambinos, value is set in your needs not the forethought of those who think your bricks are worth a dollar a piece and your square footage is worth bla bla bla
WE buy and sell for hidden value to make profit on,, other wise the value has been absorbed by preveous owners
JUst because i have my nuilding appraised at 35,000 and fight the condition that it has been aprrasied at and get it lowered to 26,000 dose not mean i couldnt sell my property to someone who may want to build a hospital on it for 20 times what i sold it for, nor dose it mean that it has to be sold for apprasied value,, i have a price if you want to buy it pay what i want, not what some burocrat tells you its worth, otherwise go on down the road, i have a building for sale in Ponca city you can buy too.
Cash in hand no financeing, deed signed at the court house, if you want all the insurance and other criteria dig out your check book...
deteriorateing buildings are deductable and capable of being apprasied for tax reasons way below market value, you just need to know what your doing, which it looks like many of you have no clue,,
What funny to me is that when most of you go to sell a property you find you have been paying 18-25% higher taxs on value each year than you will ever get for your property,,, you will have tossed away your equity in taxs though the years..
IF its not profitable what is your reason for buying
"we can do business at the county court house with a signature and cash we do not need nor is it required to have appraisals or insurrance"
The appraisal is required if the property is financed. The bank will also require insurance.
You are right, especially at the condition of the buildings downtown.
I have bought and seen other properties bought and sold downtown for as little as $20,000. Most of those are cash deals. I understand you can even buy downtown buildings at a local pawn shop.
But you are right that the tax appraisal doesn't effect the sales price in any way.
COWLEY COUNTY HOME
Guide to Preparing for a Property Valuation Appeal
1. What can I do if I believe the value of my property is too high?
There are two opportunities to appeal the value of your property.
You may appeal the "notice of value" for your property that you receive in the Spring by contacting the county appraiser's office within 30 days from the date thee notice was mailed; or
You may complete and file a "payment under protest" form with the county treasurer at the time you pay your taxes. If you paid all your taxes prior to December 20th , the protest can be made no later than December 20th (unless an escrow tax service agent pays your property taxes in full, then no later than January 31st .)
Once you appeal your notice of value, be certain that you pursue it to your satisfaction. You will not be allowed to "pay under protest' later for the same property and tax year.
2. What information from the county appraiser's office should I request and review in advance?
Ask your county appraiser for a copy of the inventory contents sheet ("ICS") on your home. This sheet will show the information the county has about your property--the number of bedrooms, baths, square footage, etc. Review it and make sure the information is accurate.
The county can also provide you with a comparable sales sheet, showing the sales of properties used to value your home. This report will list the data on your property and the data and sale prices of up to 5 homes the county considers similar to yours. Drive by those homes and make sure they are in fact similar to yours. If not, take pictures of them to your meeting or hearing to show how they differ.
If you are aware of recent sales of homes in your neighborhood that are similar to yours, request and review the ICS and comparable sales sheets for those properties as well. Take pictures of these homes with you to your meeting or hearing to show how they are similar.
3. What facts should I bring to a meeting or hearing?
The county's value is not presumed to be correct; the county must show how they determined the value of your property. However, don't take it for granted that you will win your appeal because the county must support its value. Be ready to show why your value is more accurate. You will want to provide information that supports your request for a lower value. Below are examples:
Recent sales information about property similar in condition, quality, style, age and location to yours. The appraiser's office will furnish you with a comparable sales sheet for your property or similar properties upon request. Allow several days for processing and mail time.
A sales contract for your property if it was purchased within the last two to three years.
Photos and contract/engineering estimates of the cost to repair any structural damage the county did not fully consider.
A recent appraisal report for your property prepared by a fee appraiser
Rent income and expense information if the property at issue is an income-producing investment (example, apartment building.)
4. What can I expect during an informal meeting with the county appraiser?
During the informal meeting, the appraiser will show how the appraised value was determined for your property. Review the record ("ICS") on your property to be sure all the information such as age, style and size is correct. The appraiser will also provide you with any recent sales information used to value your property. Make certain any properties used to value your property are similar.
5. What is a hearing before the Board's Small Claims Division like?
The Small Claims hearing officer is appointed by the Board of Tax Appeals, rather than by the county.
The hearings are held in the county where the property is located, or an adjacent county. The hearing must be scheduled within 60 days and decided within 30 days thereafter.
You and the county appraiser will each have the opportunity to present documentation that supports your opinions of value.
This meeting is informal; no records of the proceedings are kept. All copies of documentation are generally returned to you before you leave the meeting.
6. What is a Kansas Board of Tax Appeals (BOTA) hearing like?
The Board of Tax Appeals hearings are more formal. One or more of the 5 BOTA members will hear your appeal.
BOTA is stationed in Topeka, but its members travel to regions throughout the state. Your hearing may be held in Topeka or a city in your area.
BOTA keeps a record of the proceedings. Both you and the county may present testimony and exhibits at the hearing. This is the record that is used for any further appeals.
Generally, the property owner and the county appraiser must exchange exhibits and a list of witnesses several days prior to the hearing, so each side knows what to expect. Be certain to follow BOTA's rules.
BOTA will provide more specific instructions prior to your hearing and may be contacted at
(785) 296-2388.
7. Can someone else attend hearings on my behalf?
Someone else may attend the informal meeting with the county appraiser. However, if the person representing you is not an attorney, you must complete a"Declaration of Representation" form provided by the county appraiser.
At a Small Claims Division hearing, the owner of the property under appeal may appear personally or be represented by an attorney. In addition, the owner may be represented by a CPA, certified appraiser, member of the owner's immediate family, tax representative or an authorized employee by filing a "Declaration of Representation" form with BOTA.
Generally, BOTA requires that the property owner appear at its hearings, unless represented by an attorney. Your may contact BOTA for more information.
8. If I bought this property last year, shouldn't the value be the same as what I paid for it?
Your home will not necessarily be valued at its recent purchase price. One sale by itself does not determine market value, although it is generally given a great deal of weight. The county appraiser must first determine whether the sales price reflects the market. That is , whether the sales price is the result of an arm's length transaction, between a knowledgeable, willing seller and buyer, The sale is then considered along with sales of similar properties. Market conditions do sometimes change between the time a property is purchased and its appraisal (each January 1).
9. You should know that the County must satisfy certain "Burdens of Proof" on Appeal.
BOTA's Small Claims Division: The county's value is not presumed to be correct; the county must prove that it is.
Board of Tax Appeals: The county must show that the value of residential or commercial property is correct. However, if commercial real property is leased, the owner must provide income/expense information (up to 3 years) or the county's value is presumed to be correct.
Increases in Value: If real property increases in value from the prior year, the county must: (1) review the record of the property's last physical inspection and (2) have documentation supporting the increase. If the value increases following a year when the value was reduced by appeal, then the county appraiser must also show substantial and compelling reasons for increasing the value.
jeez could some of the posts lately get any longer...no wait don't answer that. oh well, catch up later.
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