I was at the post office yesterday.
Standing in line behind a clean cut looking young Mexican man. Well he might not have been Mexican, but he was Hispanic, and we tend to stereotype.
But.
The thing I noticed was, he was buying a money order for around $1,500. Looked like he was sending a registered letter back home with the money in it. His english was good.
What I thought about was this is local wages leaving the city - even the country.
What if he brought his family here and lived here. THose wages would also stay here.
How much money is leaving the area this way?
Maybe we should be encouraging people from other countries to move here and live - especially if they are working here already.
We do need more people, and if its a whole family, they may buy a house - which makes them taxpayers.
I dont care if they are from Mexico or Mongolia.
Ok, but we don't need anyone from Arkansas though, long story, but, there are limits to everything :)
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73 comments:
I can only imagine what the immigration haters are going to say about your post.
There are a couple of interesting points here though:
The idea of working in AC and sending 1500 bucks to family in another country speaks a lot about responsibility and integrity.
It also shows that he probably has intention of eventually returning to his family there.
The other thing is that this is the most similar to the way US citizens (I'll call them americans here) act when they work abroad. There are hundreds of thousands of americans who work for Aramco, Conoco, companies with factory ties to china, etc and when they are paid, the money never even hits the foreign land. It is transferred directly into accounts in the U.S.
Imagine for a minute if Pemex opened up the old Total plant, built a housing complex on land the Mexican company bought, put in a cafeteria and grocery store, soccer field, etc. and surrounded the whole thing with chain link and ribbon (barbed) wire. The workers were shipped in from a plant in Monterrey, ate, slept and worked at the complex and when they vacationed, they would be sent back to Monterrey.
If there were problems at the plant, the local police would be informed that it was a Pemex problem and they weren't permitted on the property.
None of the people get driver's licenses, shop in town, have any community interaction, learn any english or anything. All their food and supplies are shipped in from somewhere else by the company.
Nobody in town has any idea who is working there and when asked are told it is none of their business. If any of the workers get into trouble they are removed to their home country before they go to trial.
How would everyone like that?
THAT is how it looks when americans work in other countries, particularly in oil companies in asia and the middle east.
Now please don't bust my chops here. I also know there are conventional jobs in France, etc where it is all sweetness and light, but this is the profile for a great many jobs filled by ex-pat americans.
Something to think about when you might be tempted to be judgmental about the guy supporting his family with his check.
People can do whatever they want with their money.
Since the Post Office is a government office, shouldn't they be checking for legal status before they allow money to be sent out of the country?
Different issues entirely. If they are here legally either as citizens or on a visa, they can do as they choose with their money. If they are not here legally then they should be collected and deported.
Maybe every time anything is mailed to a foreign address their ID should be challenged? Regardless of appearance or language?
Just a thought...
Frankly, the last thing I would want is the USPS questioning me about my legal status.
If you are willing to give up the right to send a money order and letter wherever you choose without being questioned by the USPS because of your perceived threat of illegal immigration then how much else are you willing to give up?
The FBI already wants to start a database containing DNA information of citizens, which is some scary stuff to me.
BTW, James and the other post both make excellent points.
I honestly think that people hate immigrats, the Key terminology is illegal. I don't think anyone cares if they come here the way all of our ancestors did. You stand in line with your name on a list, learn things about America, and learn to speak the English language. You don't demand that people learn to speak your language. When Americans go to Mexico or any other country, do we demand that they speak English. I think not. As for sending their money back to their families, if they are here on a work visa or here legally, then they have that right. If here Illegally, than they are criminals, plan and simple.
Mexico or any other country, do we demand that they speak English.
>>>>>>>>>
There are some very ugly tourists who do make such demands, and they give amerians a bad reputation.
I found that in Mexico. More than once I saw Mexicans act as i they could not speak english to people who were being very arrogant and assuming they would speak English just for them.
I also found that if I tried to speak spanish, no matter how poorly, they would usually help me out.
Illegals are a concern.
But there are some people who need to get over themselves.
Its just like the "black" haters in the south.
Racism is racism.
You can be opposed to illegal activity, i think, and still not be against people just because they are from a certain country or race.
James, are you a fool? They do not want to come here! If they did, they would have already! It's really not that hard to get here and stay hidden in our communities. Have you even talked to these people? My husband and I have! The $1500 they send to Mexico is worth a lot more in their "mother country". They can live like kings off of what their family members send home. They will all be returning to Mexico to join them someday and drawing a social security check from the good old US of A to boot! Many of these Mexicans believe that Hispanic people who are not loyal to their "mother country" are in fact traitors. Oh, and where do you think this guy got the $1500 to begin with? Probably by defrauding the US government and not paying taxes! Mexico earns $20 billion dollars a year from people like this man who send our money south to fund their economy. We are the 2nd largest sources of income for their country. I am sorry, but you and your followers are not doing your research. It's scary that you are the editor for our only local source of news in this town.
It's really hard to see the logic of the argument.
The immigrants don't pay taxes.
How do they do that? Taxes are withheld from their wages like everybody else.
The illegal immigrants return to Mexico and get Social Security from the U.S.
How do they do that? I really want to know this one. That statement is completely without foundation.
Mexico makes 20 billion off of labor of their workers in the U.S.?
Duh....!
When you sit down to eat a grapefruit in the morning and it was picked in the US, who picked it?
I'm always amazed that someone who lives in a farm state would be so clueless about the money paid to migrant (mainly farm) workers.
The thing that really torques me off are the statements about all the illegals in Ark City. There are few if any.
The racism part comes in where pinheaded people see others with brown skin who speak spanish and start hollering "illegals!".
Talk about research? Maybe hold off on your prejudice until you know if someone is "illegal" or not.
There are probably more "illegal aliens" from students who have overstayed their Cowley permits than from migrant workers.
Racists always want to seek out some reason to hate. That is the difference.
Oh, and where do you think this guy got the $1500 to begin with? Probably by defrauding the US government and not paying taxes!
>>>>>>
\
yea or maybe he worked at Creekstone for a few weeks?
you really dont sound any different than the racists i used to deal with in south carolina .. the only difference is how brown the skin is.
the only way i know to deal with racism is just to call it what it is ... stupid and evil.
the point was getting more people to move to arkansas city.
of course they should be here legally.
James-
I for one am very glad you are the editor of the paper. You seem to be incredibly level headed, are genuinely concerned about the state of Ark City, and can look past the "politics" of a issue.
James, of course I was refering to the illegal immigrants and not the legal ones. Perhaps I did jump to conclusions about the man in the post office being illegal. Yes, many legal hispanic citizens send money back to Mexico as well. They have every right to do this, and I would support their right to do so! I was in fact only refering to the many illegals who do this in our country every day.
Do I jump to conclusions when I see someone with brown skin walking the street? I do wonder, but would never treat this person poorly even if I KNEW they were illegal. It is not my right to do so. I believe in standing up for my beliefs in a civil way!
Do I speak out against them on your blog? Yes! To me, this is a humane way to speak my political opinions. If you did not want both sides of the argument, you should not have brought it up on this forum.
You are in fact the one jumping to conclusions by calling me a racist. You have no idea! People like yourself who scream racist at the first hint of an anti-illegal position are the problem. You would just like us to keep our mouths shut and drown out our opinions by making us seem like haters.
Do you have a right to your opinion? Yes. Do you have a right to flood the Traveler with biased reporting? Yes. Does someone else have a right to tell the other side of the story? Yes, and if we start another avenue of news there would be nothing you could do about that. Keep watching!
The thing that really torques me off are the statements about all the illegals in Ark City. There are few if any.
+++++++++++++++++++++
You are aware that the two recently arrested for kidnapping a couple with a knife were found to be illegal immigrants living in Ark City, right? Do you really believe they are not here?
James
Do you have a Boss, and if so would you be so bold as to post his email address for us please
Dave Seaton, Editor and Publisher
Dave is responsible for the Courier's editorial content and administers its operation. He is president of the Winfield Publishing Company, which also publishes the daily Arkansas City Traveler and the weekly Newkirk Herald-Journal.
dseaton@winfieldcourier.com
I think this is what your looking for
"You are aware that the two recently arrested... Do you really believe they are not here?"
"Few if any" is what I said.
If you looked, you would also find at least two or three non-hispanic people (or maybe more) hiding from arrest warrants.
That doesn't mean all white folk are criminals, or that there are many criminals here. It doesn't mean anything at all, other than there might be a few white folk hiding from the law.
What is your point?
Sounds like you are trying to find something to blame on them. You know what they call that.
I'm sorry, but it's not every day that someone gets kidnapped in Wal-Mart parking lot with a knife and then cut up trying to escape.
By the way, "few if any" indicates that you believe "IF THERE ARE ANY HERE AT ALL, their numbers are few". If that is not what you meant, perhaps you should chose your words more carefully.
Another thing, I find it interesting that the Traveler did not follow up on this story. I did not read anything regarding these two being illegal and currently on hold for deportation. Do you not think Ark City citizens deserve the whole story?
Senor Wences, yes there are many criminals of many colors with outstanding warrants in this town. What was YOUR point? You ask if I am trying to find something to blame on them? I am not the one blaming these two of anything. They were convicted in a court of law. They were blamed by a judge appointed by citizens of this county. I did not mention anyone else in my comment. What was YOUR point? Are you trying to put words in my mouth? We all know what you are trying to call me. Go ahead and do it. Don't be shy! I'm sure James has got your back! James, would you like to help this fellow out? I see that you like to call people racist and refer to them as stupid and evil. Come on, hit me with your best shot!
I am against illegal immigration from any country. When they commit violent crimes in my town, I DO SIT UP AND TAKE NOTICE!
Actually I'm with you on illegal immigrants and anybody else who breaks the law.
Sadly and tragically, Ark City is not immune from the very worst of violent crime, but very little of it has come from the hispanic community.
U.S. immigration law is pretty dumb, where one day someone is "legal" and the next day they are not. Some of them just come across the border with no attempt to get a green card or work permit. Some of them get stuck in Kansas after their permits expire.
Getting all mad and jumping up and down like Rumplestiltskin is no way to treat these people. If they can be identified, then work with them and send them home. In a lot of places, churches have an outreach to initiate this.
Have you ever been stuck in a town like Ark City and couldn't leave? I have, and it's not fun and not easy to cure.
They are people with families and deserve being treated humanely. I think there should be at least one local church with an advertised hot line (in spanish, with native spanish speakers) who can help these people if they are in a jam.
The only thing that playing "cops and robbers" with undocumented workers does is force them underground where they have to support themselves in ways other than through normal jobs.
You want a sub-community of all hispanics that won't tell the police anything about anything, then put a real crackdown on illegals where they are arrested with handcuffs and police dogs and thrown in jail for weeks without options.
Everyone wants to be harda##ed, but nobody wants to live in the world that it creates or take responsibility for making it that way.
I stand on the statement that there are very few illegals in Ark City.
It rankles me to hear people call all the hispanics illegals and then act mad at them and act like they should be all taken away.
That is racism about like what the Ku Klux Klan would be very proud of.
I stand on that statement too.
Maybe you're not one of those. It sure sounds like though.
James is half illegal and half Legal he just cant figure out what pocket he left his toys in.
I hope he figures it out soon , i am tired of watching him feel around for them as he walks down the street
"There are some very ugly tourists who do make such demands"
I was on a plane from Acapulco to DFW with a large middle aged cowboy (with cowboy hat) in the seat in front of me. He insisted on telling me and everyone else on the plane (of which about 50% were Mexican) ad nauseum through the whole flight how he hated his Mexico vacation and what boors the Mexicans were.
He went on and on about how even when he shouted at them (in english), they would act like they didn't know what he was saying.
He said that he couldn't find a Kentucky Fried Chicken or any other civilized food and was upset that people gave him change in "Monopoly money".
I lived in Oklahoma at the time and asked him where he was from. Kansas City.
I asked him where he went and what he saw. He said he pretty much stayed in his room except for eating and when he went to the restaurant all they had was seafood which he hated.
He said he hated the room service maids who were so stupid they couldn't even talk.
Didn't go see the beach, town, nothing.
I asked if he ever tried to speak any spanish. He said no, he never would. Wouldn't get into a cab because it was a VW beetle and wasn't a real cab.
He asked me what I thought.
I asked him if he would have had a better time staying in a Holiday Inn in KC, and he said yes, much better.
I said: "welcome back to the states". "Hope you have a safe trip back home".
Do you have a Boss, and if so would you be so bold as to post his email address for us please
>>>
Are ya gonna tell on me ? :)
pretty brave for someone who can't use his real name. or even a fake one.
All the email addresses are on the site,but I see someone else posted it. Or you can email David Allen Seaton at the Traveler.
DASEATON@ARKCITY.NET
You would just like us to keep our mouths shut and drown out our opinions by making us seem like haters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No, You have every right to spout out racist rhetoric and call it someting else.
It is just like South Carolina.
Even the wordage is the same, and you have every right to be that way and talk like that.
At the same time, I am going to call racist talk what it is, EVERY Time it shows up on here.
So.... its up to you.
Just know im gonna bust you on it.
I hope he figures it out soon , i am tired of watching him feel around for them as he walks down the street
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ah Patrick
at least the guy in the paper uses his name. :)
James,
I don't understand your comment, but I assume you were talking to me.
Would you care to ellaborate?
Patrick McDonald
omg! I have been hearing a lot of negative talk about the traveler and it's editor. Thanks to SG clueing me into this site, I see what everyone is talking about! James, do you believe that being against illegal-immigrants makes one racist? The people speaking out here are only talking about them and no one else. Yet, you start calling names?
Patrick, i was just tweaking you, guess it was too subtle. i thought the anonymous comment was yours,.
>>
do you believe that being against illegal-immigrants makes one racist?
>>
No not at all.
But wanting to make anyone prove their legal status to mail a letter because of the color of their skin is racist ..
Some comments have been good, some sounded racist to me .
Im not lumping all the comments together.
"It rankles me to hear people call all the hispanics illegals and then act mad at them and act like they should be all taken away."
"That is racism about like what the Ku Klux Klan would be very proud of."
If there is anyone who was directly and wrongly accused of being racist, I want to apologize.
I don't apologize for saying that stereotyping of all hispanics as illegals is racist. That is exactly what it is.
Let's do two things, considering that argument escalates the conflict, rather than solves it:
Let's crank it all down a few notches.
Lets cut down the vitriol toward the hispanics and there is nothing to react to.
Both sides chill.
Actually, Motherof2, James was called a fool from the get go without even mentioning one word about illegal immigrants. He only said Hispanic. In fact, he said he didn't even know if they guy was from Mexico.
So, what does that tell you about the poster of the fool comment?
You guys have been posting for months on the message boards. One of those posts included an article about how white people were not going to be the majority by 2050 and how that "scared the poster".
The article stated that it was based on projected legal and illegal immigration numbers for the last 50 years but didn't indicate that if illegal immigration was stopped that it would still change the outcome of the majority of people not being white.
The illegal immigration issue is partly a politically contrived issue to get you scared... just like communism in the 60's, the war on drugs in the 80's, and war on terrorism in the 2000's.
Now, that doesn't mean that there are not issues related to illegal immigration, obviously, there are but to pretend it will be the end of the entire United States of America is ridiculous.
As for you hearing bad comments about James, well, just because 1 person gets upset because he doesn't agree with what James wrote pretty much means squat.
I, for one, enjoy reading James' view points.... sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't but I am certainly not going to go spewing negativity his way.... just because I don't agree with him.
I just get tired of people who are unable to debate the issues throwing out the racist card. I believe he is too quick to judge people (kind of like what he is acusing others of doing?) I have not seen anything hateful towards Mexican people posted here. I just see people who are concerned for our local economy and the effect ILLEGAL immigrants are having on it. Do people jump to conclusions when they see Hispanic people in town? Yes, but this is a problem created by our government policies and laws. If the people had not come here illegally, the legal ones would not be feeling the heat. This truely concerns me, as my children are hispanic and I do not want them to be treated poorly. I am very active in this debate because of their situation.
When James mentions going to Mexico and recruiting people to come here, one WOULD automatically assume he means illegals. Why? Because the US government is not allowing many to come here the legal way. I guess James was speaking hypothetically? Or does he have connections which will help him get people over here legally?
Personally, I believe we have no business recruiting more citizens until we have everyone in this town working and off of government assistance. If we bring more people to this town, they will only find the income is not enough to keep them off of welfare assistance either. There kids will be exposed to drugs both in and out of our schools. Is this what legal immigrants really want? Let's focus on getting our town's economy right first. Then we'll have something better to offer when they get here and tensions will cease between the old timers and the new comers.
"The illegal immigration issue is partly a politically contrived issue to get you scared... just like communism in the 60's, the war on drugs in the 80's, and war on terrorism in the 2000's."
It's really amazing. It seems to be the same people who are reactionary to all of these issues. It also is interesting that the politics of each one of these issues directs people to dislike or be suspicious of certain groups of people.
They prey on our weaknesses of distrust and judgmentalism to divert our attention from the things we should really be focusing on.
Do you want to know what foreign country is really screwing up the economy? I'll give you a guess. It's not Mexico. And it's not a democracy or a war zone.
Factories in AC have closed because of the competition from there, where people live in squalor and make 50 cents per day making substandard products which are routinely recalled in million lot quantities because of life-threatening safety hazards.
Yet we are supposed to dislike the Mexicans for coming to the U.S. and working their butts off.
These are pretty stupid rules and I refuse to play.
"I just get tired of people who are unable to debate the issues throwing out the racist card."
Listen, I get you, I understand that and I pretty much agree. Unfortunately, making assumptions about people completely based on the word Hispanic and some deemed in appropriate behavior is pretty much the definition of race-based prejudice.
If, I were to walk down the street in Harlem thinking that every young, black male I pass is a drug dealer (and think why don't the cops come get this guy for drug dealing) is pretty much racism at its finest. I can have black friends and not actively spew hate about black people but that doesn't make me any less prejudice.
I feel for your children because as long as the assumption is that every Hispanic person (sending money to Mexico or whatever deemed inappropriate action) is illegal than they probably will have issues in the future.
My own future children will be Native American. Do I want people thinking they are lazy, alcoholics? No. So, I don't make that assumption about other Native Americans myself. The thought wouldn't even cross my mind.
"until we have everyone in this town working and off of government assistance."
Actually, it is the government assistance that keeps people in AC from working.
I spent 10 years hiring people in AC only to find that almost everyone who was applying for a job was there only for the unemployment.
They were there for 2 things. Most were there to get a business card from me to show that they interviewed, so they could extend their unemployment that they were receiving.
When they were at the end of their unemployment, they were looking for a job they could hold for 90 days to qualify again for unemployment and to bill my account for it.
An audit of KHRA a couple of years ago indicated that 2/3 of all claims that were being paid were fraudulent, but paid anyway.
There was literally no limit to what the employees could do which would justify firing without unemployment benefits. Sabotage, theft, it's all OK, no problem. So many went from one job to another for 90 days and lived most of the year on unemployment and sat at home and watched TV instead of working.
There are jobs available. There are not enough workers in Ark City to fill them. Please notice I didn't say there were not enough unemployed people to fill them. I said workers.
Do you hate the state income tax when you work?
Businesses pay an equal amount to KHRA to support people that won't work.
I would like to see them all cut off! Problem is, how do we take this stand?
Many do not agree with me, but I see the IRS as just another form of welfare. I have seen people work for 3-4 months out of the year making less than $10,000/year. They file their income taxes and get back $5-$7,000 back as a "refund" check. Now, this is not a refund, as they did not pay this much in. This is just another form of welfare. Possibly the same people who are working long enough to get their unemployment check. The problem? Welfare and unemployment pay as well or better than our local employers are willing or can afford to pay. Either the welfare needs to go down or the paychecks need to go up!
Some would say that this brings us back to the immigration problem. If there are workers coming in and willing to work for these low salaries, what incintive would employers have to raise their wages? Is this all about supply and demand?
"Is this all about supply and demand?"
Finally someone has hit on the real basis of everything here.
The local employers open the jobs to everyone. By being local, AC residents have an advantage.
But at the end of the day, one way or another, the employers have to fill the jobs.
Creekstone knows where there are seasoned, skilled and reliable meat cutters and employs them.
It has nothing to do with taking jobs from AC residents. Those jobs are offered and not filled.
It's about business. Nothing more.
Raising wages would not help at all in this case.
Our benificent federal government would just raise unemployment benefits to match.
The question is, how do we make people responsible when the government tries so hard to take the responsibility?
motherof2,
No, you are NOT alone in your welfare views!
If you are the one who started acflipside, I would gladly send you a 2 page email rant rather than start something here.
Good question by the anonymous poster about where do we start.
outside looking in
acflipside@gmail.com
This is not directed at any specific comment.
I have always thought illegal meant illegal.
I am concerned that the supply of money is disapppearing in Casino's and out of country.
If a person is here legally and sends money out of country I beieve that to be legal.
I am concerned about culture change within a community. I recently visited Dodge City, Ks and it was apparent to me that in just a few short years the culture of that community has changed.
I would like to see some legislation that would make mandatory that an individual be a legal U.S. citizen for at least 18 years before becoming eligible for an elected public office. The reason for 18 yrs of age is that is the minimum age that a native born citizen must attain before becoming eligible for elected public office. If this were carried even further to the right to vote I am sure the debate would heat up with vigorous fervor. But consider whether an individual who has been a citizen only a short time should be allowed to create and administer policy that could conceivably change the cultural landscape of a community. A vote can make change.
You can put a frog into boiling water and he will immediately jump out to save his life. However put the same frog in cool water and bring it to a boil ever so gradually and he will remain in the water and perish.
Hi Russell
That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
There are legitimate concerns about illegal immigration and such, as well as changes in culture.
j
Just an addendum to the above.
It takes several years to become a citizen. Dont know how many, but its more than five or six im sure. Maybe 10, but i dont really know.
That might be enough time to allow people to vote.
18 years might be too long.
But still, its a legitimate point.
j
~~~~~~~~IKES DOnUTS~~~~~~~~~~
I guess that people who support illegal immigrants being in this town have the best defense of all... call anyone who is concerned about it racist, and you have an automatic win. Well guess what, I am NOT racist, but I do believe in protecting the sovereignty and laws of our nation AND our town. James' story about seeing the young hispanic man in the post office makes him feel all warm and fuzzy, and strikes him as a reason why MORE immigrants should be here, whereas is strikes me as a big reason why they should not... and that is because the illegal immigrants who come here for a job, see this country as just that... A JOB. Not a home, not a place to live... only a place to work. Their loyalties (and most of their paychecks) lie South of the border, and not to this town or country. That is why they disrespect our laws, and disrespect our flag by flying theirs above it (or all over their vehicles (You know, the ones with the California and Texas plates that usually expired).
LEGAL immigrants have my wholehearted blessing to be in this country. I know a few people who have legally immigrated to this country by filling out the forms, and standing in many a line. THEY are a bigger opponent of illegal immigration than I am, simply because they are sick of people who are criminals getting the things they strived so hard to achieve the legal way.
And to those of you who said that there are very few illegals here in Ark City I just have to say PULL YOUR HEAD OUT! If that were the case, we wouldn't be a hotbed for identity theft, and we wouldn't be seeing arrests made of illegals all the time (not to mention the ones who murdered the club owner on the South side of town and then just skipped back across the border never to be seen again). Until we are able to know that everyone in this country is here legally (by closing our borders) we will never be able to look at a hispanic person and know they are legal.
If you want to be treated as an American, ACT like one by learning the language, taking down your Mexican flags (after all... if it's Mexico is so great, WHY are you here!), and respecting our laws.
You know, it is the same point over and over again.
There has been nobody in support of illegals and you keep saying there are.
Not only are there few illegals in Ark City, but there are few hispanics. About a fourth as many as there are in the rest of the U.S.
I don't hear you railing against the rappers, or the crazy teenagers or the drunk hillbillys who have caused the majority of the murders and violence in Ark City. You are just singling out hispanics like they are some organized group to fear.
They really are not. There are good and bad in every ethnic, economic and social group.
Get over it. Nobody is promoting illegal immigration, no matter what you say.
I'll bet if you looked, there are people here from Seattle and Connecticut who are here just for the job. If it didn't exist they would be Audi too.
By the way, unlike Kansas, the Texas, Arizona and California auto tags don't have year stickers on them because those are easily stolen. They have year stickers on the windshield.
So if you see someone traveling through town, don't go claiming their tag is many years expired unless you look at the windshield.
Senor wences brings up a good point and I am sure he was reffering to China?
This last holiday my older sister and I got into a discussion - she is a "shrub shaker" - at least she would if she could get her hands on him! Me - I tend to look at the bigger picture - So I offered her this Question -
"We have spent over a century building our infrastructure on oil, coal and natural gas - what happens to the fabric of our Society in the event there is a major disruption in our oil supply?
She didn't have an answer!
It isn't China, Mexico, Cuba,
Iran, Russia - It is our own willingness to conform - to have the same things - do things the same way - let someone provide or do it for us that is the greatest threat!
We should be exiting some of the
old technology answers in favor of new ones - there are signs that is happening!
I leave you with this:
"We are all works in progress never intending to fully reach completion". Even in death we leave tasks unfinished/never attempted, talents unused, words unspoken and dreams that were never accomplished!
There is probably not much that can be done about the rise of China. It is a worldwide issue. The thing that bugs me is how american manufacturers and retailers have just completely rolled over to them.
Cessna is making a brand new 2 seat plane. It will be built only in China. You look at typically american companies and now almost all of their stuff is made there, almost like a private label.
When I go to On The Border restaurant, I'm given some cheap crappy chinese crayons for my kid to play with before the meal. Even though they are marked with an ASTM registration mark, who even knows what kind of poisonous stuff is in the wax?
OK, fine, they are free. But I'd rather have Binney and Smith Crayolas. They're much better and you can trust them to be safe. I'm sure my tip covers the cost of the crayons 10 times over.
They supply food products to the U.S., but they refuse permission for american FDA inspectors to enter their country.
Even KanPac has some of their food handling products made there. Who would know if they substituted bearing grease with something that was not food safe, just to save a penny per pound?
China puts restrictions on the percentage of content that HAS to be manufactured in China before a product can be sold there. That is why Boeing is manufacturing the advanced composite wing for the Dreamliner there.
I am definitely not a trade restrictions person, but I think we have to at least match the restrictions that they put on us.
You are concerned about a shortage of oil. That is very rational and we kind of know what that would look like.
What about a shortage of chinese stuff? We might say we could do without the WalMart stuff, but now there are military (!!!!!) products being manufactured in China. The Cessna Skycatcher and major Boeing products are made only there too.
China is ramping up their military and their spies have been recently caught stealing nuclear weapon and missile data. China is still communist, and even though there are many, many companies there, they are not in any way like dealing with a company in England Mexico or Canada.
You have to wonder just what kind of Chinese direct governmental funding develops the financial relationships with companies like WalMart and Best Buy.
Look how they acted with the Kitty Hawk docking refusal in Hong Kong. Diplomacy with them is not like with other countries.
I would be very surprised if the relationship with China is stable in 10 years.
I wonder what China would do if Americans did take a stand and refuse to buy Chinese products (which will never happen)? Just how angry would that make them and what would they be willing to do? Think about this...
If we made all of our products in the USA and imported nothing from China, would there be enough manufacturing jobs for all Americans and Mexican immigrants alike. I would not be suprised! Does anyone have that kind of data?
If we embargoed China, they would retaliate with matching embargoes.
Because we let them control most of today's advanced technologies (Apple iPods iPhones, IBM computers bought by Lenovo, China, all of this very advanced digital TV stuff made in China, etc.), we would fall behind Europe and the rest of the world that continues business with them. Not an option.
The problem is that China and Ark City are in direct competition for industry.
The main draw for industry in Ark City is low labor costs. That's why they locate here (like it or not).
China provides lower labor costs and the US gov't permits substantial tax deductions for companies to relocate factories to China. That part is not right and needs to change.
Until we are able to know that everyone in this country is here legally (by closing our borders) we will never be able to look at a hispanic person and know they are legal.
>>>>
The sad thing is you dont realize how racist this is.
or maybe you do.
?
I was once told by the plant manager at Rubbermaid that if the Chinese figure out a way to ship a cooler across the ocean cheaply, Winfield will lose another manufacturer. The coolers are high to ship due to the high volume, low weight of each cooler. Basically, you are paying to ship air. Once they start making stackable Rubbermaid coolers in China, we are done.
Are we prepared to lose these jobs? I know I rant a lot about the low salary jobs in our area and have many (probably not so smart) ideas on how to fix it. However, there's always the chance that higher labor expenses could put them over the line on budget and make it cheaper to produce in China. This scares the heck out of me.
Top pay for an operator at Rubbermaid without overtime is approx. $30,000 a year. Now, for a parent trying to raise 2 children this qualifies you for various government assistance and tax credits. Yet, Rubbermaid is one of the top paying jobs in our area. So I guess that the only way our government expects us to compete with China's wages is for the US to supplement our income or both parents work to get them over the poverty threshold?
Gee Whiz, James. Would you please quit it with the R word? Being racist means one thinks they are superior to another just due to race or skin color. No one is saying anything about Hispanics(legal or illegal)being an inferior group of people. The fact that we do not know who is legal and who is not, is just a fact! Do you know the difference? The employers, obviously, do not. As I have said before... We may be paranoid at times, or even jump to irrational conclusions. However, we are not racist! Just get over it, all ready.
rac·ism
Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm]
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. HATRED OR INTOLERANCE OF ANOTHER RACE OR OTHER RACES
-----------------------------------
—Related forms
racist, noun, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
American Heritage Dictionary - rac·ism (rā'sĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
DISCRIMINATION OR PREJUDICE BASED ON RACE.
rac'ist adj. & n.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
WordNet
adjective
1. BASED ON RACIAL INTOLERANCE; "racist remarks"
2. DISCRIMINATORY ESPECIALLY ON THE BASIS OF RACE OR RELIGION
noun
1. a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others
Paranoia is a disturbed thought process characterized by excessive anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This par·a·noid (pār'ə-noid') Pronunciation Key
adj.
Relating to, characteristic of, or affected with paranoia.
Exhibiting or characterized by extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others
" I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all"
"A nation divided against itself will not stand" Abraham Lincoln
According to most globalists, these statements are racist in nature. As are national sovereignty, national pride and lest we not forget, national borders, which divide a global community.
Why did they drop the pledge of allegiance from our schools? Because it was thought to be discriminatory and intolerant of other nationalities.
By globalist standards, our founding fathers were racist, discriminatory and intolerant. These men fought and gave their lives for the freedoms we enjoy.
If I lived in France, I would be proud to be French(same for any other nation). National pride protects national sovereignty.
I am proud to be an American, a born and raised citizen of the United States of America.
Outside looking in---
Good Posts on China!
I like to follow businesses and one of the best ways is their stocks! China is almost always in the news regarding business.
Here's some of what I have learned:
By 2030 China's population is projected to be as old as the U.S. from a much earlier starting point!
China is going around the world making exclusive deals where they can to ensure their future supply of oil.
China is purchasing companies and mineral reserves: iron ore, bauxite, etc. again to control the costs and ensure supply!
China has more hogs than any other country in the world!
Those are just a few items:
But if you look at the impact on certain commodities the prices have increased. That has caused us problems with inflation but conversely it has helped areas of our economy that were lagging!
Oil industry
Farming
Metals - scrap and recyling.
I think you maybe right about 10 yrs. or so - when they can build their modern society to the point their consumption is in line with their production -in house- they don't necessarily need us in the same way they do today!
The Olympics should be intersting - how they project themselves to the rest of the World!
You know, I grew up with people saying something doesn't matter and expressing it with phrases like "That and a nickle will buy you a cup of coffee at the Purity" or "What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China".
Well, the first one we can't do anymore.
The second one is now real important.
Go Figure. Things change.
"However, we are not racist! Just get over it, all ready."
I think I now understand the problem. They just don't know what is right and wrong and they don't want to be called names any more than anyone else.
Like it or not, any kind of discrimination based on ethnicity is racism. Grouping people together for additional scrutiny, opposing their children attending public schools (remember state history class?), promoting additional enforcement based on ethnicity or color (having hispanics prove citizenship before they can mail an international package), not providing public documents or explanations of civil actions or proceedings they can understand (also a biggie). All is racism.
I had a friend that told a story of people in East St. Louis receiving tickets for DWB. Not funny. The local police were targeting blacks for tighter policing because they were all drug dealers.
Were they all drug dealers? Absolutely of course not, but the local community had people making up stories and spreading the hateful stereotype that they were, and a weak-minded police chief started believing it and instructed his officers to tighten enforcement on "suspicious looking young black males".
That was racism and it was shut down hard.
So, they said they should pay closer attention to young black males because they were all drug dealers.
Well, not all are, but check 'em all anyway.
Ark City should pay closer attention to hispanics because they are all illegals.
Well, not all are, but check 'em all anyway.
Get the connection?
Maybe if I explain it again... It really is wrong.
It's called racial profiling and it is illegal for employers and government and is considered racist.
If a local cop does it,... His career in law enforcement goes bye-bye. (apologies to the Matrix)
If you haven't understood this, please trust me. I'm not making it up. Most of America knows this.
The pledge of allegiance anonymous might want to re-check his history.
Lincoln was talking about states seceding from the union, not about racial issues, and the phrase "under God" wasn't written by the "founding fathers"
It was added under Pres. Eisenhower (from Abilene) in response to a petition by a Catholic religious group, the Knights of Columbus.
Wow, all this Kansas history. Maybe if everyone knew their 1954 Kansas history better, these things would be more evident. (The change to the pledge and Brown v Board of Education were both done in 1954)
JJ, Senor Wences and other anonymous posters who claim to be the GREAT JUDGES OF ARK CITY RACISM AND KKK MEMBERS...
I pose a question to you. If I was standing behind a man in the post office who (we'll say in this case) spoke only Spanish and was sending a money order to Mexico (for arguments sake, we'll pretend we know this) and thought to myself, "I bet this guy is an illegal immigrant!"
Does this make me racist, under your judgement? How about the KKK part, Senor Wences? Does that automatically get me appointed a member?
If so, you can condemn me now. This is exactly what I would think. This is also what my Hispanic husband would think. I would be so bold as to say this is what the majority of the citizens of Ark City would think. Go ahead, just condemn us all.
JJ, would the question never even cross your mind? With your heart and tongue being so pure, are you void of doubt?
Fact of the matter is, scenarios similar to this happen every day. Am I speaking hatefully to them? No. Am I acting rudely towards them? NO. Am I physically attacking them? No. Am I circling burning crosses at night with fellow haters while wearing a white mask and robe? No.
Most of the time, I smile at them and go on about my day. Many times, I am not given the same courtesy back. Many times, I am treated with disrespect and given nasty stares. Still, I smile and go about my day.
Senor Wences,
I don't think you understand the point. The reference to the pledge of allegiance was not being attributed to the founding fathers, nor were those stating the pledge of allegiance was racist referring to the use of the word God (there were referring to the nationalistic overtones). The quote Lincoln used, he had paraphrased from Jesus Christ in the Gospels.
Immigration into any country can be done legally or illegally by a person of any nationality. This has nothing to do with race, color or creed. Every nation has set laws for immigration and citizenship into that country.
For instance, if I decided I would rather live and work in Great Britian. I would not be able to legally get a job in that country without following the proper procedures outlined within their laws. The same would apply to any other nation including the USA. Additional procedures would be involved if after legally living and working in that country for a while, I decided I would like to become a citizen of that nation.
Where a person is Hispanic, Asian, African, Middle Eastern, or European descent has no bearing on this. Nor does that persons color or religious beliefs.
By coming into any nation legally, there are additional benefits and protection set aside by that country in its laws in such areas as housing, labor, work conditions and civil liberties.
I hope this assists you in better understanding my wife's earlier post.
Sincerely Yours,
Frank
Senor Wences, jj,
I think other people on Travel Talk explained the come here legally and why aspect better than I have been able to here. [SG, Mother of 2 and dddfan]
I think the days of how our grandparents came here and built their lives without government assistance are long gone.
I brought up globalism because of the many articles,ideas and plans Ive read it has/will cater to everyone and offend no one and essentially destroy our national sovereignty and freedoms.
If amnesty is passed it will be a mute point rather anyone is here legally or not.
But...it doesn't really matter what I say here because people will believe whatever they want to and if all this still makes me a racist, then so be it.
staying outside looking in---
Speaking of KKK, I wonder if they will show their ugly little selves if Obama becomes President. Just a thought!
If you don't get, you don't get it.
Prejudices are hard to change. It generally takes a generation change. It just seems it should have been time by now.
I understand. But don't be surprised when other people call you down on it.
Other issue and other poster. No, I don't know what a globalist is. I looked it up and it seems to be a magazine and a blog, kind of like the Economist which reports on world news.
Your explanation sounds a little like something that was going around a few years ago that the UN was secretly taking over the U.S. government and we would all be citizens of the world, which if I remember right was a John Birch Society thing. Is this what you are talking about, or something else?
There are restrictions on jobs and benefits in the U.S. like everywhere else (England in your example, etc).
Most countries have illegal immigration and I find it pretty interesting that even Mexico has problems on their southern border with illegal immigrants to Mexico and the fact they are competing for the lower paid jobs there.
See: February National Geographic "Braving Mexico's Other Border"
Of course each nation has nationalistic pride, as it should. If anyone should get P.O.'ed about national pride, maybe it is the Mexicans about what Winfield Scott (the Fort Scott and Scott county guy) and General Kearny (Kearny KS) and the troops from Leavenworth did to their country.
I remember when this town was a nice place to live. No worrying about illegals, no worrying about gangs, no worrying about checking the back seat of your car before you get in it. No worrying about someone hurting someone you love and then running back across the border to safety.
This was all before the packing house came to town, or course.
Am I racist because I miss the Ark City that I grew up in? I had black friends, AND hispanic friends... the difference was, they all spoke english and considered themselves Americans. They weren't here expecting a handout, or for us all to learn spanish, or for the schools to provide translators on the taxpayers nickel. They weren't all flying mexican flags, or treating everyone with disrespect and thumbing their nose at our laws.
But, all you liberals can rest easy, because President Obama is going to give them all amnesty anyway, so we'll see how they act after that. I think it should be a stipulation that if you are given amnesty and then return to Mexico after you have made the money you came here to make, your citizenship should be taken away.
I know a secret plan to run all the hispanics out of town.
This applies only to whites, orientals, native americans and blacks. If you are hispanic, please don't read any further :)
Every time there is an opening at Creekstone, apply for the job, show up on time and work as hard as everyone else does there for the same money. Eventually all of the hispanics will be replaced. Job done!!!!
Not interested?
I grew up in Ark City too. I remember pushy John Birch members, KKK meetings in Newkirk, an adult Boy Scout leader caught sexually abusing children, vandals dumping powdered soap in the fountains, kids baseball-batting mailboxes, a bigwig, John Ranney, who horse-whipped the Traveller editor because he kept reporting on his drunk-driving teenage son, and all other sorts of pleasurable events..
Yeah, there were blacks in my the school, about 8 of them in the Jr. High, and most adult men (including teachers) used the derisive N word in casual conversation. Blacks had almost no chance at all and there were very few hispanics and they didn't get jobs either (unless they were extremely well college educated).
Most brown people were Indians, Navajos mostly, who were either employed in, a part of, or descendants of people in the US government program which forced relocation of children from the four corners area to Chillocco in an attempt to convert them to the "American" ways.
When the wind was from the south, you had zinc smelter pollution and if you lived in town you smelled a severe stench from the Mauer Neuer rendering plant.
When the rest of America was buying beatles records, Ark City bigots had a beatles record burning party.
Yeah, a real paradise.
It was probably pretty cool to be white. But don't ask anyone else. They might not agree.
How about today?
Oh, yeah.. I forgot.
People used exactly the same kind of gossip and whisper campaigns they are using against the hispanics now, but their target was different back then.
Their target back then was the catholics.
Instead of "illegals" think "sinners" and you got it.
Just as bogus then as it is now.
Senor, can you answer my question? Yes or No? I want to know if I'm going to hell or not.
"If I was standing behind a man in the post office..... and thought to myself, "I bet this guy is an illegal immigrant!"
Does this make me racist, under your judgement?"
"How about the KKK part, Senor Wences? Does that automatically get me appointed a member?"
I'm taking it like there are two questions and I guess you feel that a yes answer means you are going to hell.
From the second question first, I have no idea how one gets into the Klan. Please don't ask me to research it, because there is an important reason I don't want to do that.
First question: Really be honest and search your own emotions here. Some people are naturally suspicious. If you were behind someone who was not hispanic, would you think them to be a criminal, one way or another? A young white man in T shirt and jeans, would you suspect he was a drug dealer? A woman in an oversexy outfit, something was wrong there? A black man getting out of a new BMW? How about a man in a fancy suit. Is he a conman?
If so, you have an overactive imagination and you and the people around you must have an interesting life.
If not, and the only one you are suspicious of is the hispanic, then yes, there might be a problem there.
Now the third part, your assertion that this would send you to hell.
It seems all of your posts are hyperbole, meaning that they deliberately overstate your feelings, other people's statements, etc., and I'm taking this one to be another of these.
It is interesting that your husband is hispanic. That may mean something. You might dig deep and think if this doesn't influence your outlook on hispanics, maybe giving the feeling you have some special perspective and authority on the rightness or wrongness of their actions.
The going to hell issue? It's hard to know where you get that conclusion, I certainly didn't say or suggest or imply it in any way. I'm presuming it is part of your hyperbole.
If it is not hyperbole BS, and you are serious and have good connections with the church, maybe a pastor or priest could better help you with the hell issues. I can't. He maybe could help with the racial stuff too.
Senor Wences, yes or no? No one asked questions or looked for special circumstances before. They just made the call. Why can you not do it now?
Am I racist because I miss the Ark City that I grew up in?
>>>
No, but you are cause you believe paradise has been spoiled by Mexicans.
Really, its the same language i used to hear in the south.
"Im not a racist, i just dont like them N****s"
"Im not a racist, i just dont like those hispanics"
you are blaming a certain race of people for all of ark city's problems ... how is that not racist?
Thanks, James. That was all I needed to know.
"Senor Wences, yes or no? No one asked questions or looked for special circumstances before. They just made the call. Why can you not do it now?"
It is what it is. You asked if I think you are a racist and will go to hell.
I don't know if you are a racist, and I'm hoping that you are not. A racist implies inflexibility and inability to change. I'm thinking you are a rational person and will eventually see the differences, have a little more compassion and sense of equality and change your outlook.
If you want me to say you are going to hell, then whoa there podner, ya better back that horse up offa the lawn. No puedo. Lo siento mucho.
how did hell get involved, or invoked, in this ?
ive gotta wonder if its hot or cold... to me a cold hell would be worse than a hot one...
Have you ever read the book No Exit by Satre?
It is an interesting perspective on hell...
Anyway, it seems to me that you if you think the cold would be worse than it would be cold to you..
If you think hot would be your worst nightmare than it would be hot.
Mother of 2 brought it up.
A priest a rabbi and a pastor were all on a bus to a convention in Mexico (no duck this time) and the bus went over a cliff and they all died.
They were greeted by St. Peter and Abrahim at the pearly gates and both of them were very surprised to see the three. The bus wreck was an unexpected accident.
Pete and Abe said: "Look, we don't have your places ready yet, but we will in a week and if possible, there is a temporary space in Hell where you can wait. All three were familiar with the concept of purgatory and didn't know what to expect anyway, so they all said yes, its a deal.
A week later the Devil makes a conference call to Abe and Pete. Pete answers and turns on the speakerphone, put his feet up on the desk and says "Lucifer, how the Hell are you?"
The Devil replies: "You've got to get these dudes out of here, they're driving me nuts!"
"What's wrong?"
"Well, the preacher has passed out about 10,000 Gideon Bibles to everyone and is converting them, the rabbi is converting some of the cooler locations into seasonal time-share condos, and the priest has just about raised enough money to air-condition the place".
Apologies to Jay Leno.
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