Holy week began yesterday with Palm Sunday.
Warning: Adult material: Im getting off the city for a day and talking religion for a moment. If you are offended by such material do not proceed. :)
Easter is early this year. I really don't know why its a different time each year and mid-march seems much too early. But there's nothing i can do about it.
To me, Easter is a much more holy, or spiritually significant holiday. Christmas is nice, but if there is no Easter then Christmas is irrelevant.
There are pagan roots to Easter, just like there is to Christmas. When Christianity spread to Europe pagan holidays were adapted to celebrate Christ's death and resurrection. Christmas didnt come along for many years, but it too co-opted a pagan holiday.
THe easter bunny, eggs and all that, are completely pagan in origen.
By Pagan i mean the popular religion is europe before the gospel arrived. Even the word "easter" comes from the pagan goddess of fertility.
THat bothers some Christians and they dont do the holidays as a result. Doesn't bother me in the least.
One thing that always bothered me was the idea of "good" friday and sunday being easter morning, or resurrection day.
I dont care how you slice it, friday evening to sunday morning is not 3 days and 3 nights.
But the days themself were just days chosen for celebration purposes and have no real connection to history. Im not sure that 3 days matters either. Dead is dead whether it is 3 minutes, 3 days or 3 weeks. But still it seemed that there was a contradiciton in the scriptures.
Well the problem was not the scriptures, but our understanding of history.
The scriptures say Jesus was crucified on "preparation" day, and it mentions a special sabbath.
The jews of the day were partiers. When a holy day landed on a sabbath they didnt have them together, they had a special sabbath so they celebrated 2 days instead of one. They also had a preparation day, when all the food and such was gotten ready, so that everyone could celebrate and no one was stuck in the kitchen.
So you have preparation day, then two days of sabbaths, and on the third day you have resurrection day. So if Sunday is resurrection day, Jesus would have to have been crucified on Thursday.
Some historians assert a third high holy day in there, making the crucifixion on Wednesday.
I dont want to get too bogged down in history though. The point is, he rose from the grave. It was not just raising from the dead - Jesus raised several people from the dead - Lazarus was dead even longer than Jesus was, which is why the "how long" doesnt matter too much.
He was resurrected - not just "brought back". He came back to life with a new body, one that is immortal and completely perfect. It is perhaps the kind of bodies we will have in Heaven.
Paul uses the analogy of a seed being planted - our mortal bodies being "planted" when we are buried in death. What comes up is not the seed, but a plant which is much larger.
We are "sown" in imperfection, and "raised" in perfection.
His death also paid the price for our sins. Im a bit radical in that i believe that means ALL sins,all means all. So im already forgiven for the sins i will commit tomorrow. Doesnt give me a license, but it does give me assurance.
His resurrection defeated death - the penalty for sin - hence giving us victory over sin (thats a whole nuther subject).
Anyways, im rambling on.
I do have some easter traditions.
I like to spend more time during the week in the scriptures and in prayer. Meditating over the scriptures, especially John's account of the final days of Jesus life on earth.
I may go to some of the services this week.
I really try to avoid any of the fleshly sins this week - smoking, drinking, bad language, lustfulness etc., - , and it is easier because im focusing more on the one who died for me. Yea i know, i would be better off if i focused more on the spiritual aspect of things all the time, not just at Easter ...
I like to fast at some point. usually friday to sunday. Fasting is another subject we might get into someday. It is a great thing both for the spirit and the body.
I will admit though, that i don't usually like going to church on Easter Sunday. It's just too religious, too crowded with people who only go on Easter. Im glad they are there, but it is just too special ofa time for it to be just a matter of religion.
It is also a very emotional time as well.
This is the difference between religion and being a follower of Jesus.
My religion is not religion at all really. it is a relationship.
Religion is man's interpretation of God. "real" christianity is God reaching to us and our response to him. THast real orthodox, what the apostles believed - .. :)
j
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84 comments:
I have some ocean front property for sale about ten miles East of town if you're interested.
Thank you, jj.
knightrules1
Easter marks the Christian transition in man and God's relationship from harsh judgment to grace.
Not a bad concept to contemplate.
I've never heard the belief that even sin's you will commit tomorrow are already forgiven? So in that sense, EVERYONE goes to heaven even if they dont believe and knowingly commit serious sin?
I'm just curious what leads you to believe this way?
God is no fool.
Go ye and sin no more.
Thats the thing with Grace. You get accused of saying it doesnt matter if you sin or not.
There is only one sin that can keep you out of God's kingdom, and that is rejecting his means of getting there.
Wonderful word there jj, my friend.
One in covenant with HIM
You missed the part where the bible says the Earth is flat... and the center of the universe... and only six thousand years old... etc etc etc etc etc
How can you pick and choose what parts to believe when there are so many lies and contradictions?
Study your bible... it's a sure path to atheism.
bible says the Earth is flat... and the center of the universe... and only six thousand years old... etc etc etc etc etc
>>>
the bible says NONE of those things ... show me :)
>>>>>>>>
How can you pick and choose what parts to believe when there are so many lies and contradictions?
You have to understand it in context that it was written in.
show me one honest to god contradiction that takes into account the culture it was written in .....
>>>>>>>>>>
Study your bible... it's a sure path to atheism.
If you study it with intellectual honesty, you will have to admit that it is a legitimate historical text.
You go study and show me contradictions in the original languages ... not my fault if you dont know them :)
but, the original languages are the only thing that is inspired.
you were warned :)
I'm on jj's team.
;)
The New Testament is completely based on ignoring parts of the Old Testament and selectively incorporating the other parts.
For example ignoring the dietary laws and cleansing dictates while accepting the Pentateuch.
Most of the things we think of as Christianity are based on opinions and rulings that "people" have made, based on their interpretation of the bible, ie.: the Trinity, hell, excommunication, etc.
In fact, the books of the Bible are a small selection of writings taken from a much larger group. These ones included are considered holy and the ones excluded were declared heretical, but the decision of which writings were in and which ones were out were made by people. The Catholic Bible has a different version than the Protestant Bible.
The Catholic Spanish Bible is different as well, as it it never went through the thee, thou, and thy stuff in the King James translation.
The thing I find fascinating is how far people will go on their own interpretation of religious philisophy. There is a popular group that says that if you wish for and beg God for some trinket or shiny toy, (a jet plane for example) then it will be given to you in heaven.
That sounds more like the religion of the other J.C., not Jesus Christ.
Jiminy Cricket:
"When you wish upon a star,
makes no difference who you are,
everything your heart desires
will come your way"
Not my version.
My version has a covenant which requires responsibility, accountability and initiative as a condition of grace.
You can't BS God. You can't beg him either. He has serious work to do and doesn't need to hear whining. After all, He is the Creator of all of the universe, time, space, atoms and infinity. Would you go to him if you wanted to beg for a car loan, or to beg to win next weekend's game? Think about it.
A lot of this stuff you have to do yourself.
The only way prayer works is if you are willing to take "no" for an answer.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
JJ,
Here is what you asked for. Don't blame me if you start to see the folly of the whole thing.
Type in "biblical contradictions" into any search engine to see more.
There is a passage (and I can't think of it right now, and am too lazy to look it up) where it says that someone goes to the highest mountain and can see all of the earth. Sounds like a flat Earth to me.
It (the bible) also refers to bats as being birds. And YES, the bible does say that the earth is only 6 thousand years old. Any preacher will tell you that.
I can look them all up if you force me, but it will take a bit. I threw my bible in the trash long ago!
JJ,
Who decided what religion you would believe? You? or was it your parents? Were you raised to believe one thing, and forsake the others? Or, did your parents sit you down and explain all the different religions to you, and have you choose which one you wanted to live by?
Now imagine you were born in Iran, or Afghanistan. Would you still believe what you do? NO WAY!
And then ask yourself this: Should you be sent to hell for your beliefs if they turn out to be the wrong ones, even though your intentions were good? Should the circumstances of your birth, that led to you believing the wrong god, send you to hell?
Now, don't worry.. there really is no such thing as hell.
JJ,
Think you know your bible? Take this quiz... it will surprise you.
http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php
There is a passage (and I can't think of it right now, and am too lazy to look it up) where it says that someone goes to the highest mountain and can see all of the earth. Sounds like a flat Earth to me.
It (the bible) also refers to bats as being birds. And YES, the bible does say that the earth is only 6 thousand years old. Any preacher will tell you that.
I can look them all up if you force me, but it will take a bit. I threw my bible in the trash long ago!
>>>>
You need to find them,
ive seen lists of alleged contradictions.. most are things taken out of context.
and you need to recognize figures of speech ...
thinks like "four corners of the earth": have been said forever and have nothing to do with geography.
or the highest place thing .. totally ridiculous.
at one point it says everyone in jerusalem went out to hear the prophet . so if there was only one person that stayed in the city, the entire bible is a lie ... pulleeeze
ive been studying it for 30 years or so, i know the original languages.
\actually i studied greek under one of the top ancient language experts in the united states - he helped translate the NIV ...
but i refuse to debate a person who cannot even be bothered to prove anything he says.
youve said nothing that even resembles reality.
and nowhere does the bible say the earth is 6,000 years old, totally ridiculous as 6,000 years ago calendars had not been invented yet.
the bats being birds is in psalms, poetry ... do you know what poetry is ?
but if you can find a legitimate problem with the bible, we can talk.
i do know of one or two language things that do not affect the meaning, ..
show me
From a christian website:
http://www.missiontoamerica.com/genesis/six-thousand-years.html
Hang in there, you may learn something that could change your life today.
Who decided what religion you would believe? You? or was it your parents?
who decided what you would believe or not believe ?
I have studied hard for many years, read exhaustively, learned new languages so i could read more.
tell me how many books you have read on the subject.
have you read luther?
augustine?
plato?
nietche?
do you even know these names?
i have reasons for what i believe and i can prove everything... there is evidence.
what evidence do you have for your beliefs?
were your beliefs set by watching tv?
hink you know your bible? Take this quiz... it will surprise you.
http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php
>>>>
most slow 3rd graders see through the bs in this :)
The Catholic Spanish Bible is different as well, as it it never went through the thee, thou, and thy stuff in the King James translation.
>>>
I will say that i believe that only the original languages are inspired.
But, with the translation tools available today, and with some study, the translation "problem" is pretty well non existant anymore.
There are not many significant differences in the various translations, and most of them agree very much with the original languages.
There are complete new testaments dating back to 300 a.d. in greek. These do not differ significantly from any of the other preserved texts up through the 1500's when it started getting put into other languages.
whether you believe the bible or not.
if you are intellectually honest, you will have to admit that the ancient texts have been preserved remarkably and have been translated very well into many languages.
"I have studied hard for many years, read exhaustively, learned new languages so i could read more.
tell me how many books you have read on the subject.
have you read luther?
augustine?
plato?
nietche?
do you even know these names?
i have reasons for what i believe and i can prove everything... there is evidence.
what evidence do you have for your beliefs?
were your beliefs set by watching tv?"
Okay then... show me your evidence.
(Since all of the top religion professors are unable to show any evidence, I'm not gonna hold my breath)
Think you know your bible? Take this quiz... it will surprise you.
http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php
>>>>
"most slow 3rd graders see through the bs in this :)"
Awfully defensive and quick to attack, aren't you. The scriptures are listed in the quiz if you'd bother to take it and read the answers. I bet you score less than 50%.
Awfully defensive and quick to attack, aren't you. The scriptures are listed in the quiz if you'd bother to take it and read the answers. I bet you score less than 50%.
Ohhhh i see ... when you attack a person for stating his beliefs, its just expression
when i respond in like manner im on the attack.
thanks for clarifying that :)
I read a few of the questions and could see they were trick questions aimed at a specific answer.
silly mind games and taking things out of context.
And, for the record, I was raised in the church, and even went to christian school, and have read a lot. That's what made me come to my senses.
Tell me J.J., does your god let over 300,000 children die EVERY DAY on this Earth because he wants to, or because he is powerless to stop it? Either way, that's nothing I'd want to worship.
Since all of the top religion professors are unable to show any evidence,
thats about the most ridiculous statement ive seen today.
what do you base that on ?
Since all of the top religion professors are unable to show any evidence,
thats about the most ridiculous statement ive seen today.
what do you base that on ?
"I read a few of the questions and could see they were trick questions aimed at a specific answer.
silly mind games and taking things out of context."
There is nothing taken out of context. Read the scriptures in your own bible. It pains you to realize that what you have believed is wrong, I know. Take the quiz. I double dog dare ya.
Either way, that's nothing I'd want to worship.
I never said anyone should do what I do did I ?
why so defensive ?
jj,
maybe you should call all the major news organizations, because when you finally lay down the evidence of a god, they are gonna want to hear it.
I can't wait to hear it myself.
There is nothing taken out of context. Read the scriptures in your own bible. It pains you to realize that what you have believed is wrong, I know. Take the quiz. I double dog dare ya.
>>>
it would prove nothing.
why are you so intent on saying im wrong.
why do you care so much?
You didn't answer the question. Does he let them die of starvation and disease because he is powerless to stop it, or does he have the power to stop it, yet does nothing? I'm curious.
I am just presenting another viewpoint. YOU are the one who challenged me.
But just look at how many posts you are getting :)
ecause when you finally lay down the evidence of a god,
can you honestly look at nature ... take one leaf from a tree ... and tell me that it popped into existence for absolutely no reason at all?
whether it took 7 seconds, 7 days or 7 billion years is irrelevant.
nature is evidence.
also, billions of people over thousands of years have had the same experience with GOd ... you cannot deny that
the scriptures are also evidence
their preservation is miraculous.
there are many miracles
but that isnt the real problem is it ?
Think of how many posts you will get after you prove that god exists! Man, your server will probably crash.
You didn't answer the question. Does he let them die of starvation and disease because he is powerless to stop it, or does he have the power to stop it, yet does nothing? I'm curious.
its called a double-bind question.
you tell me
are you still beating your wife?
you tell me that, then ill answer your question.
am just presenting another viewpoint. YOU are the one who challenged me.
But just look at how many posts you are getting :)
>>
presenting another viewpoint is fine.
but you did attack me in doing so..
Oh man, the old nature is evidence of god argument. I'm speechless.
I can, and do deny it.
Would you believe me if I told you I had fairies in my garden? Or magical beans that grow a beanstalk to the heavens? Why? is it any less supernatural than a burning bush, or a parting sea, or a boat that can hold 10 million species of animals AND redistribute them on different continents?
If someone came into the paper and said a burning bush talked to him, or that god told him to saw his kid in half, you would call the cops immediately!
You didn't answer the question. Does he let them die of starvation and disease because he is powerless to stop it, or does he have the power to stop it, yet does nothing? I'm curious.
its called a double-bind question.
you tell me
are you still beating your wife?
you tell me that, then ill answer your question.
THAT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE! and no, I'm not starting to beat my wife... i just finished... she should be good till tomorrow around 4:30!
Just take the dude's test already. I'd like to know the results too.
I can, and do deny it.
>>>
ok,
it just seems strange to me that youre going to so much trouble though.
if i read something i didnt agree with on a blog, especially if it were something i didnt believe at all, i dont think id waste this much energy on it.
using reason, logic and experiences of billions of people you can establish a reasonable possibility o God..
using reason, logic and experiences of billions of people you can establish a reasonable possibility o God..
There is FAR more evidence of flying saucers, than there is of a supernatural god. Do you believe in them? Tom Cruise does.
"ok,
it just seems strange to me that youre going to so much trouble though.
if i read something i didnt agree with on a blog, especially if it were something i didnt believe at all, i dont think id waste this much energy on it."
Have you ever heard the old saying "if you stick your neck out, don't be afraid to get it chopped off"?
I just get angry when people who have a pulpit in the public trust start pushing their beliefs on people is all.
Maybe you should stick to reporting the news.
Kirk Cameron challenged a group of atheists to a debate using the old "Nature is proof of god's existence" argument too, and he got owned on live TV. You can still see the video of the debate he had with the rational response squad online.
You people are silly. You can't prove God and you miss the whole point.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/
I just get angry when people who have a pulpit in the public trust start pushing their beliefs on people is all.
ahhh the old pushing bit
how did i push?
where did i say anyone should do as i do?
i didnt.
next objection ..
talk of proving God..
you cannot disprove God.
what is proof ?
if I proved God to you it wouldnt matter, you would not admit it anyway..
the proof is out there... are you brave enough to do an honest investigation no matter where it takes you?
"you people seek a sign in vain,
you will get no sign except for the sign of jonah"
:)
I just get angry when people who have a pulpit in the public trust start pushing their beliefs on people is all.
I did warn you at the top ... telling you the subject matter and saying that if you would be offended, to not continue ..
"talk of proving God..
you cannot disprove God.
what is proof ?"
Exactly my point.
You cannot look around you and view toward the direction of the infinite and not see some cause of events that led to where we are today.
It is a sure thing that there is not some god guy looking down on us from up above like a laughing Teletubby sun-baby, granting our wishes for a new bicycle and cars and things, because one must ask, "who made him"?
It doesn't take a great thinker to read the passages in the Bible that refer to god as an infinite un-knowable existence. Alpha - Omega, that sort of thing.
The collective existence of man is god. It is our perception that makes God possible.
When we pray, we are praying to something deeper. Don't screw it up.
"talk of proving God..
you cannot disprove God.
what is proof ?
if I proved God to you it wouldnt matter, you would not admit it anyway.."
You are mistaken sir. I would listen if you would just give me some evidence to weigh. Please do. I'd love to know that there is more in store than just this one life.
Please convince me. Show me some hard evidence that would stand up in a court of law, and I will weigh it honestly.
Please convince me. Show me some hard evidence that would stand up in a court of law, and I will weigh it honestly.
>>>>>>>>>>>
witnesses are admissible in court, circumstantial evidence,
preponderance of evidence.
people have been convicted of murder with no murder weapon produced.
write to me at my personal email and we can discuss evidence.
i dont want to do that here with someone who is serious :)
jjordan2773@sbcglobal.net
jj
Very basic evidence. This could be discussed in another post if you all like, or via email.
HISTORY - there is more evidence to support the historical jesus than there is to support the historical george washington. If you accept ANY historical record as valid, you must accept the historical records.
That Jesus existed, and that there were people who claimed he rose from the dead, is a historical fact. Some may argue that only his followers wrote about him, this is untrue, but ... using the same logic, chinese historians didnt write about george washington, so he must not have existed.
Many eye witnesses. Testimonies recorded.
WRITINGS . there are thousands of ancient texts that tell the story, and there is no disagreement among them.
NEED- CS Lewis argues that the need is evidence. Since the beginning of recorded history man has had a need for God. for something higher to worship ... just as the need for water and food "proves" the existence of food, he argues the same is true for our need for a higher power. The "need" is there in every culture ever recorded.
NATURE - the complexity of nature is too great for it to have "evolved" from nothing without some guidance. (evolution does exist, but there is still no scientific evidence that one species ever evolved into a different species)
As I have said, whether it was 7 seconds, 7 days, 7 billion years, is irrelevant.
SUBJECTIVE experience - over the course of history billions of people have had the same subjective experience with God.
So,
Historical record, need, nature and subjective experience.
what do you think ?
jj did say at the very beginning of his discourse that to go further reading would involve religion and warned you not to continue.
It amazes me how many people do not believe in God and go to this much arguing and bickering to stifle a view they disagree with.
If you don't like it change the channel. Sheesh!!!
Historical records of Jesus? Show me.
And, i never said Jesus didn't exist, just that he was not/ is not the son of god. I would believe that their was a man named jesus who convinced people that he was the son of god. i just don't buy the resurrection story. Did you know that the Jesus resurection story is like the fourth resurection story to be told historically? There were many before him that mirrored his almost exactly. take Apalonnius (sp?) for example.
Historical records of Jesus? Show me.
>>>
The bible is a historical record.
Jewish historian Josephus
Greek Historian Philo
Roman historian Tragan
by they way, they were the ONLY historians writing about the area at the time, so ALL of them mentioned him.
Look them up with google.\>>>>>
>>>>>>>
And, i never said Jesus didn't exist, just that he was not/ is not the son of god.
>>>
Thats not provable or disprovable.. why is your non belief more valid than my belief ?
>>>>>>>>
I would believe that their was a man named jesus who convinced people that he was the son of god. i just don't buy the resurrection story.
>>>
But you do concede that there were people around at the time who did ?
Again, why do you think that,
what evidence do yu have?
>>>>>
Did you know that the Jesus resurection story is like the fourth resurection story to be told historically?
>>
Maybe the 400th, so what ?\
>>>
There were many before him that mirrored his almost exactly. take Apalonnius (sp?) for example.
>>
THere is no similarity to the apolonius story whatsoever.
only a death and rebirth .. you could say we all die and are reborn every day when we sleep and wake..
you can do better :)
From what I've read, you couldn't throw a rock without hitting a Messiah figure back in Jesus' day.
It's just that his stuck for some reason.
Everyone knows that Jesus had 12 followers while he was on Earth, right? David Koresh also claimed to be the son of god, but he had five times as many followers. (I don't believe him either BTW.)
My point is, many people throughout history have claimed the resurrection story as their own, and many more have claimed to be the son of god. That doesn't make it true, OR show proof that there really is a god. Even if you could prove that Jesus existed, that proves nothing about an all powerful, supernatural god.
Why is it that our ancestors believed that the gods lived on the top of a mountain (olympus), but when we were able to access the tops of the mountains, there were no gods. Then it was believed that god lived in the clouds... then we were able to go to the clouds... no god there either. So, now heaven is where? another dimension? a different plane of existence? all in your head?
The bible is not a historical record. Stop lying to these people. The bible was written 400 years after Jesus died, from stories passed down. No chance they got exaggerated?
The bible is not a historical record. Stop lying to these people. The bible was written 400 years after Jesus died, from stories passed down. No chance they got exaggerated?
>>>
It is a historical record of what people thought at the time.
There are COMPLETE new testaments from 300 a.d.
There are fragments of the gospel of john from 100 a.d., probably within 15 years of its actual writing.
There are complete gospels of john from 125 a.d.
there is absolute proof that most of it had been written within 40 years of Jesus life on earth.
thats historical fact.
rom what I've read, you couldn't throw a rock without hitting a Messiah figure back in Jesus' day.
>>>
there were a few, but not real common as you suggest.
the rest of your arguments are totally illogical.
you need to read about ancient cultures more from the point of view of the ancient cultures.
one could argue that since EVERY ancient culture in existance had an idea of God, that this is evidence for god, not against it.
"one could argue that since EVERY ancient culture in existance had an idea of God, that this is evidence for god, not against it."
One could also argue that in every ancient culture you speak of, people didn't have the intelligence to undestand how things worked scientifically, and had to make up supernatural reasons behind such simple things as thunder or rain. One could also argue that in all of these ancient cultures, no one knew what became of a person after they died, so they made up things to make themselves feel better about dying.
But let's put an end to this arguing... how about if I agree to go read a bible (again) if you agree to go to the library and pick up "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, and read it cover to cover?
how about if I agree to go read a bible (again) if you agree to go to the library and pick up "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, and read it cover to cover?
>>>
Read it, wasnt impressed.
lots of wishfull thinking with no evidence.
but i agree, we need to stop.
i do have freedom of speech and will defend against attacks on here.
its an american thing :)
ive not tried to stifle anyone and am not going to let it happen to me.
i dare ya to read Basic Christianity by John Stott.
get it cheap on ebay or half.com
:)
The deeper understanding one has of religion the more one understands that it is existential, ie,: totally based on an individual's faith and beliefs and not on any facts that may or may not have made it through the fog of centuries of persecution and proselytism.
It is not something that can be proven to others and is not something that can be known as a fact.
You could indeed submit religion to a court of law as evidence. It is done in the Middle East all the time. That doesn't make it any more than faith and beliefs.
Our culture is full of language that tricks us into thinking a big plan was made by some grand kahuna.
We are constantly talking about how a cat has a tail for balance, not that it uses its tail for balance. It presumes someone made it that way.
The moon was built to provide tides, that sort of thing.
The logic that some sentient entity like a man or spirit made the universe depends on circular logic that doesn't question what made him or it.
The clues to our existence are all around us with light from past and distant stars, fossils, written history and genetics.
The same people who can go the the Wellington courthouse and see the mastadon skull are the ones who would claim that the earth is 6,000 years old.
The ones who would raise a Hereford are the ones who would say that millions of years of life doesn't change the structure and nature of animals.
The ones who grow modern wheat are ones who deny genetic evolution.
The clues to our existence are all around us but we are as intellectually able to understand it as a dog could understand his electronic bark collar.
So we say it all was made by a spirit up in the sky that gives us a paradise when we are dead and we beg him for toys every night.
It's a personal thing.
Everyone knows that Life started in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, right?
And then Adam and Eve had children, and.. WAIT A MINUTE!!! where did their children's spouses come from?
D'oh!
Call it a theory, but Evolution in plants and animals has been proven with scientific evidence. There is ZERO evidence of intelligent design.
By the way, it is also a "theory" that the earth revolves around the sun. (which is also something that the bible contradicts)
I am a believer in God. I feel better and I am a better person since I do believe than I was before. That and my faith are enough for me.
I know one aethist personally and he's not a very happy person. And I would hate to live under the delusion that God was not real. So for me and my family -- we believe.
Call it a theory, but Evolution in plants and animals has been proven with scientific evidence. There is ZERO evidence of intelligent design.
>>>
No, evolution as an explanation for the creation of life is bad science pure and simple .. it is good science for development of species.
there is ZERO evidence that any species ever became a different species ...
and there is absolutely no evidence in plants.
>>>>>
By the way, it is also a "theory" that the earth revolves around the sun. (which is also something that the bible contradicts)
bible doesnt address that issue at all ...
someone writing poetry doesnt count - psalms.
So, the parts of the Bible that have been proven incorrect should be taken as "poetry", and the parts that are unproveable should be taken as Historical fact... I see. Good way to ignore what doesn't fit your views.
I really am curious where Adam and Eve's children's spouses came from. Please enlighten me, since you did so much studying.
So, the parts of the Bible that have been proven incorrect should be taken as "poetry", and the parts that are unproveable should be taken as Historical fact... I see. Good way to ignore what doesn't fit your views.
>>>
are you even out of high school ?
how ridiculous.
poetry uses imagery.
you have to at least try to understand what is being communicated ...
>>>
I really am curious where Adam and Eve's children's spouses came from. Please enlighten me, since you did so much studying.
>>
This is probably the easiest "Problem" there is..
couple of theories.
one being that there were other people created at the same time .. based on some verses in gen. 2.
other theory is that thy were so genetically perfect, having just been created, that there was no problem with family members marrying.
you havent even come up with a hard question yet
I really am curious where Adam and Eve's children's spouses came from. Please enlighten me, since you did so much studying.
>>
"This is probably the easiest "Problem" there is..
couple of theories.
one being that there were other people created at the same time .. based on some verses in gen. 2.
other theory is that thy were so genetically perfect, having just been created, that there was no problem with family members marrying."
Okay...EWWW!
And let me get this straight... there were OTHER people created at the same time as Adam and Eve, yet there is NO MENTION of them in the bible? Wouldn't they be pissed to know they got passed up for their neighbors Adam and Eve. What made Adam and Eve so special that the others were just totally ignored?
You say I have yet to ask any hard questions, but so far you haven't been able to answer ANY of my questions to any satisfaction. You just keep saying that everything is based on faith. Why not just admit that nothing in the bible can be proven, and that most of it is made up?
But, if it's questions you want:
1. Just how DO you fit tens of millions of species of animal, insects, birds, reptiles, etc on one boat? AND keep them from fighting, AND redistribute them on different continents? Most biblical scholars say that the Noah story must be look on as metaphor... do you agree? (or is it poetry?)
2. Dinosaurs? (and please don't pull out the old "behemoth" argument, because we all know they were talking about elephants.)
3.After Jephthah was victorious in battle, what sacrifice did he burn on the altar, as he had vowed to the Lord? (okay, it was his virgin daughter... great god you got there!)
4.everyone knows the story of Job right? What kind of god would torment poor old Job just because Satan dared him to? (maybe he triple dog dared him?)
5. Is god all powerful? If so, what kind of god lets 300,000 children die every day?
6. Do the Ten Commandments prohibit incest or rape? Okay, I'll give you this one.. No, they don't.
Did you take that test yet? Every answer in it is backed up by scripture. No tricks or things taken out of context. http://ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php
Okay, I'm done trying to make you see the light. It's obvious that you are burying your head in the sand when it comes to looking at your belief system.
There is a good reason that god's followers are likened unto sheep...
You've gotten lots of posts out of it though.
And yes, I am out of high school. That should have been fairly obvious, since my writing is better than yours, and you ARE the editor of the newspaper.
"And then Adam and Eve had children, and.. WAIT A MINUTE!!! where did their children's spouses come from?"
How can we have a reasonable discussion if you won't read the bible? They came from east of Eden in the land of Nod.
The Eden story is not the story of the creation of mankind, it is the oral tradition of the birth of a culture or decendancy. It is the first part of the legacy of Abrahim and the semitic tribes. It is the common story of the legacy of jews and muslims.
Gentiles have also adopted it as their history, but it never was indicated to be. That is why everyone claims it is the history of all of mankind, but the land of Nod gives us clues that it wasn't. Only the creation of the semites, eventually tracing the history of the sons of Abrahim.
"there is ZERO evidence that any species ever became a different species ..."
Sure there is. That is what Darwin observed on the Galapagos. Iguanas which had been isolated from the general population of other iguanas long enough that they were differentiated into a different form. They have clearly traced fish DNA into precursor fish which had gone through the same differentiation process. Australian platypuses and kangaroos, same thing. Pigmy elephants in Java.
It is very clear that humans evolve based on environment and time. The europeans were about 5 feet tall when they came to the Americas in the 1490's and they are now bigger and taller, and that is only a few hundred years, not millions.
You need look no further than your lap-dog to find an animal that evolved from one to another.
A bird becoming a cat? no, but a cat coming from another type of cat, which changed from another type of cat which came from another and so on for millions of years and yes, we are back to primordial soup.
Evolution is the hand of God. He made it all. Just not yesterday. These things take time.
You just keep saying that everything is based on faith. Why not just admit that nothing in the bible can be proven, and that most of it is made up?
>>>>
I never said everything is based on faith. I gave evidence, You have given accusation.
I could answer your questions, but you would dismiss the answers, so i wont bother.
As someone said.
No one is as blind as he who will not see.
Your logic is that of a high schooler, sorry, but thats how i see it.
YAWN !!!!
these questions are so old its pathetic.
but ... just in case any one is honestly curious...
But, if it's questions you want:
1. Just how DO you fit tens of millions of species of animal, insects, birds, reptiles, etc on one boat? AND keep them from fighting, AND redistribute them on different continents? Most biblical scholars say that the Noah story must be look on as metaphor... do you agree? (or is it poetry?)
>>>>>>
Ever heard of the continental drift theory? This could have been millions of years ago. How many kinds of Canines are there ? maybe there was only 1 kind then and dogs, wolves, etc., have "developed since then.
I dont agree that the noah story is metaphor because just about every ancient culture has a flood story. thats a little suspicious. something happened in the very ancient world.. since apparently everyone knew about it.
whether it was literally the entire earth ... i dont know and dont care.
If you actually read the bible you could see that there are different kinds of literature and each kind must be understood differently. This is why i think you are a sophomore in high school, or you are just intentionally acting dumb.
>>>
2. Dinosaurs? (and please don't pull out the old "behemoth" argument, because we all know they were talking about elephants.)
What about dinosaurs ? ive never understood why they would matter at all ? how is that an argument against the bible ?
>>>>
3.After Jephthah was victorious in battle, what sacrifice did he burn on the altar, as he had vowed to the Lord? (okay, it was his virgin daughter... great god you got there!)
READ THE TEXT, he didnt do it.
he made a huge mistake, and the point is to make sure you know what you are vowing, but ... he didnt do it.
>>>
4.everyone knows the story of Job right? What kind of god would torment poor old Job just because Satan dared him to? (maybe he triple dog dared him?)
its a story ... you know God well enough to judge God then, ok.
Jesus also said not to cast your pearls before swine :)
>>>>
5. Is god all powerful? If so, what kind of god lets 300,000 children die every day?
Well, YOU will have to answer for them too. God put us here to take care of each other, What have YOU dont to help these starving children? Can i see receipts of your donations ?
do you actually care about the children ?
do you care about anyone?
>>>
6. Do the Ten Commandments prohibit incest or rape? Okay, I'll give you this one.. No, they don't.
They dont prohibit stupidity either :)
>>>>>>>>>>
Did you take that test yet? Every answer in it is backed up by scripture. No tricks or things taken out of context. http://ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php
Every question and answer was out of context. It was an insult to my intelligence, as well as to my dog's intelligence.
Alas,
ive cast my pears before swine and they are trampled.
Ill not respond anymore
The Eden story is not the story of the creation of mankind, it is the oral tradition of the birth of a culture or decendancy. It is the first part of the legacy of Abrahim and the semitic tribes. It is the common story of the legacy of jews and muslims.
>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Finally, an intelligent post.
Id not argue with anything you wrote. There are different ways of looking at things.
It is kinda cool to think of adam and eve as part of the Abraham story. id not really thought of it that way before, but ... it does make sense.
There are verses in Genesis 2 that seem to indicate other people were created as well.
I liked your comments about evolution as well.
Im not a fan of the 6000 year old earth theory either. But even as science, evolution is not an adequate explanation of the origin of earth. There's as much faith to evolution as there is to creation.
(intelligent design is politics, not anything else:) )
I think people need to realize that, especially in the early Genesis stories, we are talking a very long time ago, so there are lots of unanswered questions.
Also, to see the Genesis story as history, does kinda miss the point, to me anyway.
It is true i think in a general sense, but there is a much greater message there.
j
"You go study and show me contradictions in the original languages ... not my fault if you dont know them :)"
"you were warned :)"
"the bats being birds is in psalms, poetry ... do you know what poetry is ?"
"tell me how many books you have read on the subject.
have you read luther?
augustine?
plato?
nietche?
do you even know these names?"
"what evidence do you have for your beliefs?
were your beliefs set by watching tv?"
"are you even out of high school ?
how ridiculous.
poetry uses imagery.
you have to at least try to understand what is being communicated ..."
"Your logic is that of a high schooler, sorry, but thats how i see it."
"If you actually read the bible you could see that there are different kinds of literature and each kind must be understood differently. This is why i think you are a sophomore in high school, or you are just intentionally acting dumb."
"God put us here to take care of each other, What have YOU dont to help these starving children? Can i see receipts of your donations ?
do you actually care about the children ?
do you care about anyone?"
6. Do the Ten Commandments prohibit incest or rape? Okay, I'll give you this one.. No, they don't.
"They dont prohibit stupidity either :)"
"Alas,
ive cast my pears before swine and they are trampled."
Mr. Jordan,
Is that any way for a Christian man to act when he is challenged on his beliefs? It looked to me as though that person might have been better served by trying to explain things without all the anger from you. Maybe they would have seen your side if you'd have been kind, as a christian man should. Doesn't seem very christian the way you acted. That person might have been brought around if you'd tried a little harder. That is what true christians should do.
"do you actually care about the children ?
do you care about anyone?"
No, we atheists don't actually care about anyone but ourselves.. We just sit around and worship satan all day, and then at night we go into the village and find some little kids to sacrifice to our dark lord. And then we go have orgies and do drugs... because that's what atheism is all about after all.
That is the problem with you people... anyone who doesn't see things the way you do is the evil enemy. How many died in the crusades simply because they didn't believe in the right god (or any god)?
Morality is not dependent on believing in god. I have never been drunk ONCE, never tried any type of drug, and never done anything that would get me arrested. Can you say the same? In fact, I would say that my morality is more pure, because I do the right thing because it is right, not because I'm afraid to go to hell when I die.
Lookit.
The bible, particularly the Old Testament, is an allegorical history.
It is a story that uses characters to teach us the abstract ideas of how to preserve the message, somehow learn to work and play well together, to not lie to not cheat to, not kill each other and to not be judgmental.
Let me cover that last one again.
If anyone is serious about further reading, the Vatican has an annotated version of the Bible online at:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P3.HTM
Pay close attention to the Nephilim who appeared after the gods had sex with the women.
Interesting stuff.
Makes for a great story, with a number of important messages.
Don't pick it apart. Why would we do that? Take it for what it is and learn from it.
Don't pick it apart. Why would we do that? Take it for what it is and learn from it.
I pretty much agree with the post.
Taking it as history does miss the point.
I think many of the stories are "for the most part essentially true"
:)
but even that isnt the point.
jj
"Taking it as history does miss the point."
It is not history. The Bible consists of allegorical lessons, parables and stories to learn from.
There is no "true" in a lesson. Only knowledge or missing the point.
I bet if your kid's history class only told stories, instead of telling actual events the way they happened, you'd be upset.
I bet if your kid's history class only told stories, instead of telling actual events the way they happened, you'd be upset.
>>>
Actually stories would be a great way to learn history.
History is told all the time with made up stories.
"Columbus thought he would fall off the edge of the earth," Even Copernicus knew the earth was round. The argument was over how big the earth was. Columbus said it was smaller than what was thought. Good thing he ran into ground. He ran out of supplies right before landfall.
Washington told no lies and chopped down a cherry tree.
North Vietnam attacked us at the Gulf of Tonkin.
The revolutionaries blew up the Maine in Cuba.
We were not attacking Japan with aircraft before Perl Harbor.
We tell stories all the time.
Call them history and claim there is "proof".
Sorry Pearl Harbor. didn't proofread.
well, if you can believe in something with absolutely no proof, then far be it for me to try to make you see the error of your ways.
ignorance is bliss, as they say.
well, if you can believe in something with absolutely no proof, then far be it for me to try to make you see the error of your ways.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I dont believe in anything without proof.
:)
You just keep telling yourself that.
BTW, I have fairies in my garden.
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