Unofficial results
TOTAL for 2166
Total against 1888
Still about 80 provisionals to count, but thats not enough to change it.
Final canvasing is Friday
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A blog by Managing Editor James Jordan about the newspaper. So far it's mostly about city commission, but I hope to delve into other local issues.
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About Me
- Traveler Editor
- I have been at the Traveler for 4 years. I have been in the newspaper business longer than that. I came here from South Carolina. Apart from that, I am an unapologetic Jesus Freak. I am not, however, Republican.
54 comments:
2,166 people decided that 1,888 people are going to pay taxes at a higher rate for the next 20 years.
I sure wish they would have just paid our share for us since they wanted it so badly.
What a rip! How far outside of town do you have to move to escape this tax grab?
maybe you could move to winfield
Or you could move to Cuba where nobody gets a say...
No comments eh?
Interesting.
It is what it is.
Next.
well, it does make the Curry Field question more relevant.
I was looking at the results on the County website, and was surprised to see that there were many many votes from outside of Ark City. Even some from Sumner County.
How is it fair that they get to vote when they won't be footing the bill?
It still would have passed without their votes, so why let people vote who won't have to pay? Sounds very unfair.
How do you know they don't own property in Ark City?
They were registered voters in the school district.
Several people live in the school district but no in Arkansas City. Like in Parkerfield for example. :)
Anyone who lives within the school district will be paying the taxes. The area is MUCH greater than just Ark City. It extends into Sumner County to the west and into Strother Field to the north. To the state line in the south and east just past the state lake.
If they were registered voters in the area and moved, they could be in Buffalo NY.
How many residents?
How many registered voters?
If they were registered voters in the area and moved, they could be in Buffalo NY.
>>>
in theory, yes.
but not too likely. You have a legal residence. For a year after I moved here from South Carolina, I could still have voted there.
But as soon as you register to vote in a new place, the old registration goes away.
This is why about 20 percent of the mailed out ballots were returned to the county as undeliverable. People had moved but had not changed their address with the registration people.
That figure is about normal for an election.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How many residents?
How many registered vote
>>>>>>>>>>
10,400 ballots sent by the County Clerk's office
just over 4,000 returned
thats about 40 percent participation, which is more than most general elections.
"Anyone who lives within the school district will be paying the taxes."
Not true. People who own property in the area will pay the taxes, irregardless of where they live.
Now maybe the school district will give us the actual cost of the bond issue. I bet my taxes go up more than $35.00 per year as advertised by the school district. This is kinda like the county jail which has already exceeded the original cost and it is not yet complete. You can not trust the government.
Now maybe the school district will give us the actual cost of the bond issue. I bet my taxes go up more than $35.00 per year as advertised by the school district.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
That $35 is on a $54,000 house ..
so roughly
a 100,000 house will be 70 per year
a 150,000 house will be 105 per year
etc.
they say the $54,000 is an average house, must be some cheap houses in town:)
They are cheap because of supply and demand.
They are cheap because so few people have bothered to take care of their homes the past 20 years. They are cheap because many need to be torn down for being in such terrible shape. They are cheap because the slumlords rent them without doing any repairs. They are cheap because there have been almost no new homes built in so long.
They are cheap because most of what homes there are livable in our town have been let to run down to trash.
We have houses being used for storage by businesses and people alike. We have houses that have not been lived in for decades. We have homes that were damaged in floods 10 years ago that still haven't been fixed.
We have a lot of houses in town worth less than $15,000 or even less than $10,000 because too many people just don't care.
Taxes in this town aren't too high, values of all the trash that's left is way too low! These trashy properties is why responsible home owners pay more than their share!
I looked at a house for an investment property. It had been foreclosed on by the bank. It was really cheap.
It was a gigantic mess and needed so much work that you would probably never get your money back.
Honestly, it would probably be better to bulldoze the place and start over on the lot then try to fix up a 60 year old house that was basically trashed.
My guess is there are many places like that in AC, which is unfortunate because the homes have character but they were just not taken care of.
The same goes for many of the beautiful buildings that have been torn down.
Good points
There are some real bargains around. ive been to a couple auctions and been pretty amazed at the prices.
It does go back to pride in one's town and in one's self.
How do we get people to have pride?
(of course, i mean the good kind of pride.)
Make the city clean force the owners to clean up and do repairs!
"2,166 people decided that 1,888 people are going to pay taxes at a higher rate for the next 20 years."
Yeah, that's the way democracy works. If you don't like it you might try Venezuela, or maybe Iran.
How long do you think it will take before your house gets re-evaluated for property taxes?
Why should a few property owners take pride, when the city and school board don't. Take Curry field for an example. If you don't take preventitive maintenance to keep up schools and stadiums, why shouldn't it flow down to the people. How many years will it be before the new stadium will need repairs that it won't receive. Anything will go down without upkeep. GET PRIDE ARK CITY!!!!!!!
Why should a few property owners take pride, when the city and school board don't. Take Curry field for an example. If you don't take preventitive maintenance to keep up schools and stadiums, why shouldn't it flow down to the people. How many years will it be before the new stadium will need repairs that it won't receive. Anything will go down without upkeep. GET PRIDE ARK CITY!!!!!!!
*******
True! True!
It does not pay to invest money in your home. In other cities, one could put $20,000 into a kitchen and expect twice the return on their money at resell. In Ark City, you can just kiss that money good-bye. Fact is, there are very few investments in ones home outside of paint and cleaning up which will get you bang for your buck. If there was money in it, these cheap houses would be gobbled up by those who can afford to "flip" them for a profit.
Also, if one was to put money into their homes (especially the outside), they would actually lose money in the long run. There home would be worth about the same, but their taxes will go up (some more).
Having said that, I see no reason for not investing a little sweat equity. Unless they are physically unable, they can "afford" to pick up trash and mow!
I have been told by several people (though unable to prove with documentation) that more than 50% of the homes in AC limits are rental properties. I know that one does not have to look very hard to find a renter. Most residents of AC can not afford to buy or have poor credit. If they did, the demand would go up and prices along with it. Back to the supply and demand thing.
If you want demand, you need industry which pays enough to support a mortgage, perform maintenance to said property, put food on the table and keep the lights on.
Has anyone but myself figured out that our city is just poor?
By the time they get done with this bond issue, it'll be a lot poorer.
what are you doing to change that ?
Moving!
Back in the 1800s a man was riding a covered wagon through Kansas, looking for a place to settle.
On the edge of town he saw a cabin. An old man was standing out on the porch.
He asked the old man, "what kind of people live here?"
The old man responded by asking .. "What kind of people were there where you came from?"
The settler said mostly good.
The old man responded.
"You will find the same kind here."
Can you imagine how much happier the people of Ark City would be if the unhappy people that wanted to move finally did move?
What would we do without all of their complaining? Without all the bad words, complaints and whining we'd have nothing left to listen to.
Yea, what if they did all leave?
interesting to think about.
"Can you imagine how much happier the people of Ark City would be if the unhappy people that wanted to move finally did move?"
Most people who leave Ark City don't do it because they are unhappy.
Most do it when they get a new job or house or get married. It is not about being unhappy. It is about choices.
The people left in Ark City, however...
We do need more choices.
I thought about how it would be fun to go out for breakfast this morning. Then I thought about where to go.
The choices.
Im going back to bed.
What kind of place would get you out of bed for breakfast?
maybe a buffet,
or a denny's
We used to have a Denny's. Maybe we could get them back!
Seriously? Denny's would get you out of bed for breakfast. They for the most part lack any charm their service is usually pretty abysmal.
A nice(smoke free)cafe serving brunch with sidewalk seating in the summer.
It is a sad state of affairs when Denny's would be better than any of the choices in Ark City.
There are towns much smaller than Ark City that can support cafes and diners with a little charm. I was in Okmulgee, OK a few months ago and that down is pretty bad (AC looks like a utopia in comparison) but they had a couple of cute diners and a cute coffee shop downtown.
Daisy Mae's is the best breakfast anywhere! But you gotta love the Coffee Break and Brick's almost as much.
Then again, everyone has their favorites.
OK OK OK
We need to get a blog going on what we really like about town. Breakfast at your favorite cafe, fishing inside the city limits, favorite place to shop, favorite place to walk, etc, etc.
Come on James, get 'r done!
The last time I was in Daisy Mae's the cigarette smoke was so thick it stratified into layers and had it's own weather system.
"I was in Okmulgee, OK a few months ago... but they had a couple of cute diners and a cute coffee shop downtown."
Okmulgee has the same kind of pop-culture gay 90's remodel job that Ark City got, with old fashioned lights, bumpouts, locator plaques and logo banners. They have parallel parking instead of angle parking, and their downtown is nearly a ghost town.
The city is trying a main street program to revitalize the downtown and apparently they are having some success with it.
If there is anyone who could share experiences, it is Okmulgee. There are many parallels between Ark City and Okmulgee downtowns.
When I was there, it seemed the breakfast place was a Best Western with a fairly fancy restaurant.
Ark City funded one of the local motels $3,000,000.00. Any of that go into a breakfast place?
The main difference I see between Okmulgee and Ark City is that our downtown is on the main street going through town. Unfortunately, the major traffic totally bypasses Okmulgee's downtown. However, they doesn't mean that we can look to them for lessons. Also,it seems that they didn't tear down as many of their historic buildings. They actually have a really neat town square.
The Best Western restaurant changes hands a lot. The restaurant biz is tough. When I was there it wasn't open and was getting turned into something else. I think before that it was a Mexican food place. My husband grew up around there so I have actually spent quite a bit of time there. Talk about a town that was probably once very beautiful that has totally gone downhill.
If you think Ark City is bad you should visit there sometime.
Do you know Junior Brown?
No, sorry don't think I know him. Hubby grew up in a little town outside of Okmulgee. His Grandpa was pretty active in the community so he might have known him.
I do like Bricks.
Ive just been there a few times lately and didnt want to go again this morning.
Didnt want to diss them nice ladies that work there :)
ill start a blog of what i like.
that could be interesting.
Ark City did not fund the motels. The city authorized IRBs, Industrial Revenue Bonds that the city is NOT responsible for. The city authorizes them, then the bonding company sells the debt. The owners of the motel must pay off the debt. If they don't, the people who bought the debt lose.
Using IRB's just gives them usually a lower interest rate, and they don't have to pay sales tax on materials for improvements. I believe there was also a tax break on the improvements (similar to the neighborhood revitalization)
Another myth about the city giving away money.
Patrick McDonald
How in the world is a motel industrial?
Could they have gotten the financing and special treatment without the city's participation?
What did the city get out of that?
My point exactly.
It was a new owner, and they wanted to make improvements. Motels are not retail and they help with the tourism industry. The income to the Convention and Visitors Bureau, which comes solely from the bed tax, has almost doubled in 2 years. That's about twice as many people each year coming to Ark City.
It did not cost the city anything, the city did not finance, the city is not responsible if the motels cannot meet their financing. Basically, at no risk to the city, business was significantly increased. There were no tax dollars involved other than some sales tax, and only the increase in property tax. The original property taxes stayed the same.
The increase in business at the motels and what those guests spent in town while they were here should cover that and then some.
Is there something wrong with this? What should the city have done?
Patrick McDonald
The city should do what it can to make progress, and that means not paying attention to naysayers and those that would block progress.
:)
OK, for a moment, let's say I asked why is a motel an "industry" that qualifies for an industrial revenue bond, and what benefits go to the city. Not a bad thing to ask, eh?
Let's say I asked exactly what kind of sales tax break they got?
Good question too, eh? Particularly in view of the TIF that got turned down.
Let's say I asked what of the $3,000,000 financing that was provided through the industrial revenue bond actually went into improvement of the property? I think the question was did it improve a breakfast shop? Maybe not too thin ice here?
Howzabout did any of the industrial revenue bond go toward the purchase price of the motel? ie:, did Ark City IRB cash help these guys buy a motel here?
Are there any watchdogs who monitor this? I know that question is getting closer to the edge.
What about: were IRB's used to finance the strip mall development on North Summit or were tax abatements given to them (where the old motel used to be)? What were they?
Real thin ice here.
How about: Other than retail, are there any limitations what businesses can qualify for an industrial revenue bond or tax discounts or rebates?
The ice seems to be cracking....
And finally!: If the strip center got a tax break, what would keep a retailer from setting up another "company" to do the "shopping center development" to qualify for the tax breaks and then lease it back to himself for the retail business?
How is that different from the Lowe's proposal?
I understand that tax exempt industrial revenue bonds can be used by a developer to build new residential developments or residential apartments. Has the city ever looked into promoting this to try to create modern housing?
OOPS! That one went over the line. This guy is obviously a naysayer whose questions don't deserve discussion.
I won't go into the Lowe's because that would be beating a dead horse. It's gone, though I thought it was a very worthy investment.
I'm not sure of all of the limitations of IRB's, but I am sure they cannot be used for retail. The savings in sales tax I wrote about earlier was that they didn't have to pay sales tax on equipment they purchased for the remodel. The IRB could not be used for the purchase of the motel either, only for the improvements.
The strip center was quite different. Though the city gave a tax incentive, we did not give up the taxes we were already taking. The new owner is still paying the original taxes, just not taxes on the improvements. Very much like the neighborhood revitalization. The tax break was given by the city only and was not bound by any rules. The idea was to reduce the costs so rent could be lower for local retail, and a period for local retail to have first shot at these spaces. Walgreen's asked for a similar tax break, but they had already started, had nothing for local retailers and didn't show additional improvement (like removing the old motel).
I'm not sure I answered all of what you were looking for, but I hope this helps. You are welcome to write me directly at pmcdonald2005@sbcglobal.net if you need more of an answer
Patrick McDonald
Yes. Thanks.
Has the city looked into IRB's for housing development?
IRB's are not available for housing development. That is why we changed the neighborhood revitalization plan to cover the whole city. The city can do more for housing developers in supplying "infrastructure". That would be more of a case by case basis.
Patrick McDonald
Didn't know. The Lawrence chamber of commerce webpage said some did qualify, but I didn't and don't know.
BTW the Lawrence Chamber page is pretty neat.
http://www.lawrencechamber.com
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