It is hard to decide ... What do we do with the naysayers, the negative people, who always find something wrong.
Do we try to "convert" them by showing them the truth, or do we just ignore them and move on with progress?
I used to lean to "conversion" but now I am leaning the other way a bit.
Sure there are problems. Yea we don't have enough industry, we dont have this we dont have that yada yada yada. Truth doesnt matter to a lot of people. But we cant let them stop progress.
BUT we have enough people to support three or four casinos just to the south of us. How much sense does that make?
I do get weary of the negativity at times, and I guess this is one of those times. :)
I know there are positive minded people here in town. We just need to get them together and start doing something.
We just passed the school bond referendum. Yes its going to cost a bit more on your property taxes. Get over it and make one less trip to the casino.
There are going to be some good economic things happen as a result of the school bonds .. $36 million spent on schools and the community is good. Beats the heck out of taking $36 million south to the casinos and throwing it away doesnt it?
Virtually none of the casino money stays here.
I know i know, i've gone from preaching to meddling. Ill shut up now. :)
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"I know there are positive minded people here in town. We just need to get them together and start doing something"
I'll take a bite at this. James you are correct most of the naysayers will argue just because they can. I have lived here all my life and watched this City from the inside and out. Their are lots of positive minded people that can make things happen, but I believe they are mostly passive type people. They don't tend to pound their fists and scream when something does not go their way. I watched many of those positive people the night of the big box vote. Most of the simply got up a left with very little comment, they will move on to something else or keep trying. Others, the naysayers, celebrated they had defeated the devil! I also believe a large portion of our naysayers are simply uneducated or do not take the time to research facts. They just go with the flow. When the dynamics of the commission changed so did the dynamics of the community. The commission somewhat sets the pace, our current commission seams to be thinking small and worring about the little things, in other words Micro Managing! Micro Managing, this is the naysayers bill of rights! Individual problems are what is important now, not what is best for the community as a whole. I feel a little negativity coming through the finger tips as I type so I think I'll quit for a while.
I feel a little negativity coming through the finger tips as I type so I think I'll quit for a while.
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Yes i felt the same thing when i was typing the post.
How can we get them motivated ?
Might be careful about calling people "naysayers". Are they just people who have opinions that don't agree with your opinion, or are they people who might make real and credible change in Ark City?
Think about it. Are they providing a wake-up call that Ark City wouldn't get otherwise?
Follow the issues:
One issue was about the formula used for determining the mill rate to cross check the often quoted numbers, Even though it would be simple to reveal the formula, it was treated like some sort of secret and stonewalled. It is still not published. You could fix that in 10 minutes.
Another issue was about why the City Commission completely ignored and then destroyed a petition with 400 signatures.
Another issue was to bring up the limitation that even though the hike bike trail was being promoted as a place for bandstands and restaurants overlooking the river with stuff built on top and on the sides of the levee, that nothing can be built on the levee.
Another issue was the condition of some of the buildings downtown and the question of why there is barn metal and plywood on the windows.
Another issue why the city has almost no benefit from local industry? Even though the city has provided industrial revenue bond financing and utilities for these businesses, why are these businesses not annexed into city limits to benefit the city's tax base (and to pay their fair share)?
It is a real trap to separate yourself from those who would give a differing opinion and it is a very common problem in Ark City.
If you think about it, it is the real reason that the City Commission didn't listen to the petitions or public commentary. They were "naysayers" and their opinion doesn't count.
It is judgmental arrogance, particularly as it applies to the Commission's actions. It is incredibly easy to say those with opposing opinions don't know anything about what they are talking about, dismiss them as one word or another (I guess naysayer works here) and ignore their input.
The funny thing is that the naysayers mostly didn't do anything other than ask questions which could have been easily answered, but instead were stonewalled or softpedaled.
As a newspaper, this might be a trigger point for investigative reporting, but a number of times the questions were ignored and not even pursued.
jj, don't fall into the trap of categorizing and dismissing those who would question "official" "facts". I have lived in Ark City long enough to know that there are an awful lot of side-tracking, outright lies and bulls##t in "official" press releases.
"Naysayers" are probably the only vector for growth and change that Ark City has.
I too am feeling the negativity pretty hard. Especially, the "I'm going to move because XX" people. The grass is always greener on the other side. However, it is especially greener if you don't do anything about your own grass. Or ignore the fact that your neighbor puts in a lot of effort to make his grass green.
I was raised here but have not lived here my whole life. I can tell you that taxes are high everywhere and if you lack education then you will have a low paying job any place you live. That, for better or worse, is the way the world works these days.
" The funny thing is that the naysayers mostly didn't do anything other than ask questions which could have been easily answered, but instead were stonewalled or softpedaled."
I don't think asking questions is being a naysayer. You seem to be defensive about your posts - not sure why.
Naysayers are people who say "this town sucks- I'm moving," or "even if you did something on the river no one would use it."
The only thing I will disagree with you on is the river project. This blog is for ideas- they don't always necessarily work but shooting them down immediately just stops people caring about what could be possible.
The ideas are thrown out and then researched to figure out what is or isn't possible pure and simple. Patrick was able to eventually provide the information.
Brainstorming is a healthy, creative way to come up with possibilities and then you assess those possibilities for viability- with real information.
I also find it interesting that the first post describes naysayers as being exactly the opposite side of who I think they are.
I guess a naysayer depends on whose ox is being gored.
Another reason not to characterize them as some word that is not descriptive of their positions.
In city planning circles, I have heard the word "cavemen". C.A.V.E men, standing for Citizens Against Virtually Everything.
Cavemen are not the ones questioning facts and figures. They are the ones who say if you don't like it them leave town, because everything is right here and no change is needed.
There is a fine line between Naysaying and asking questions.
A good dose of skepticism is a good thing.
We did answer several of the school bond questions.
The way i understand the milage rate is that the body - school, city whatever - say how much money they need with their budget, and the county adjusts the mills to fit that.
Sounds kinda backward, but ... thats how it is.
You can do anything you want with numbers. Bottom line is the cost that they advertised for taxpayers, and it will likely be near that.
I just dont see how i could be a whole lot more than that without there being tons of lawsuits.
But the Naysayers are those that are just always negatve. I am not aiming that at questions, but at those people who always talk about how bad things are, but are not willing to actually do anything.
Keep the questions coming.
THe naysayers are not even asking questions. I wasnt including you in that.
On the petitions and the city commission. The official word is that no one knows what happened to them. I think we all know what really happened.
They were left on the table and ended up being thrown out by the cleaning crew.
Kinda passive aggressive.
"You seem to be defensive about your posts - not sure why."
They are not all my posts.
I'm defensive about the right that people should have to ask questions without being dismissed with no consideration.
This NEWSpaper would do everyone a great service if they would start investigating the things it prints a little deeper, instead of just putting out press releases.
How many facts came out about the school bond in the last days of voting (and even after it was too late to vote) that might have changed a vote in either direction?!
As it is now, it seems you just accept anything that is said to you by people in power, and never question it. Rational thinking people do not like to be led one way or the other, but given both sides of an issue in order to decide for themselves.
Okay the negativity is gone for a while so I'll type some more. I do not have a problem with the the people that question things, agree with me or not. In fact most of the time intelligent questions can lead to improvement. Definition for "naysayer" is probably needed. Those that do not do any research, they seek their information from the local donut shop, or coffee shop talk. There are STILL people that don't understand how the proccess for the downtown streetscape was funded and how many things were mandated by state and fed laws. They refuse to look for correct information, I think because they thrive upon the drama and can be apart of the loudest group. It is popular to be against things, it is easy to dissaprove of things you don't understand. There is a large or loud part of our community that will not take the effort to do research, seek facts, go to meetings,in order to educate themselves about issues. James, I don't think we can fix this type of person, it may be genetic.
"BUT we have enough people to support three or four casinos just to the south of us. How much sense does that make?"
If you have ever driven through the lot at those casinos, you will see that a LOT of the tags come from many other places, most notably, Sedgwick County.
It isn't Ark City supporting them (although I'm sure there are quite a few that go there from here).
Rational thinking people do not like to be led one way or the other, but given both sides of an issue in order to decide for themselves.
>>>>>>>>>
Rational thinking people, think :)
We did answer questions about how the bank would - or wouldn't profit.
We answered several questions.
One HUGE problem was that those against it were not willing to speak on the record, and did not have facts to back up their statements.
Where were the facts and figures against the bond issue ?
With the exception of Jean Snell, who was a brave man.
Hopefully the school board will consider some of his comments and ideas.
I don't think we can fix this type of person, it may be genetic.
>>
LOL
Oh my !
Great post.
I do hope those that are asking questions understand that they were not the intended target.
YOur definition of naysayer is the same as mine.
James, sorry to out you on the spot, and this question is open to others. Would you consider the three commissioneers naysayers since they voted to not continue with a proposal for the big box development? Their yes vote would have not commited to anything other than more information. Just thought I'd poke the bear one more time.
"Kinda passive aggressive."
The first real improvement that Ark City could make is for everybody to see passive aggression for what it is and refuse to permit any more of it.
A cheat is a cheat, a lie is a lie, theft is theft and sabotage is sabotage. The fact it is wrapped around "it is my story and I'm stuck with it" or "gosh, I'm just not smart enough to know the right way to do it" needs to start to be regarded as the intentionally deceptive action it is and for it to be treated accordingly.
Doesn't work with cops. Passive aggression is lying, stealing and cheating wrapped with a BS story. Only morons ever believe it, but for some reason some people accept it as a permissible lie.
There is no difference between lying and lying with a BS story. (or cheating or stealing)
Trust me. People in Ark City are not stupid and not incapable, and they really do know the difference between right and wrong, especially when they are trying to pull a passive aggressive scam.
Call it what it is.
Put an end to it by not letting people off the hook. Press for the real answer.
If that means calling someone down for deceptive bullcrap, then they deserve it. Maybe it will teach them a lesson and they will stop.
IMHO
"school, city whatever - say how much money they need with their budget, and the county adjusts the mills to fit that."
The tax bill breaks it down between operations and school bond and interest. I know they don't just pull it out of the air.
What is the mathematical formula?
Why is it a difficult question?
"James, sorry to out you on the spot, and this question is open to others. Would you consider the three commissioneers naysayers since they voted to not continue with a proposal for the big box development? Their yes vote would have not commited to anything other than more information."
Great Post! Better call animal control, I think I hear too many chickens!
Better call animal control, I think I hear too many chickens!
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LOL, cute
but i ain't biting.
You guys put your real names on here, then maybe ill nibble.
I have said the petition-gate was passive aggressive.
I think the 3 amigos believe they are doing what is best, and the other two (need a name for them) are as well.
Just messing with you James, However I do believe there is something to a past statement that there is not much going own with the commission. You think their scared or laying low waiting for the water to quit boiling. Soon they will throw us back into the water and turn the fire up slowly,we will be dazzled by new catch phrases, studies, programs, and closely guided gobbly-gook that we will never jump out of the pot. We will slowly melt into their spell and become part of the problem again. Years of history in this community backs my blah, blah, blah.
Hard to say, but they are talking about lots of stuff in the worksession meetings.
THeir goals are coming up soon, and that will be interesting.
We need to keep our eyes on them.
Asked a commissioneer, already heard their goals, Blah Blah Blah!
I already fell all warm and cozey in this pot.
Well i said interesting ... :)
But what should they be do you think?
I think what will be more important is the action plan that follows.
Now is the time to get involved with them.
Go to their worksession meetings.
They have a list of goals, but they are not in order.
They are scheduling a couple public hearings.
Is this the right order ?
What do the people want?
what if the people are wrong?
:)
What if the people are right?
You are right, we need to ask questions, and we need to keep asking them until we get a straight answer.
Too many questions have been asked and too many times no answers came forth. Why?
Maybe the answer wasn't politicaly correct, or didn't do anything to further the party who was supposed to answer it. Maybe they didn't want us to know the truth.
Who knows? There are way too many maybes.
Why bother going to city work sessions or meetings? They don't listen to people. During the big box debacle there were hearings and petitions that went completely ignored. Why would they listen to us in a less formal situation.
They are going to do what they want, to who they want, whenever they want. And there is nothing any of us can do to change it.
After further thought I must temper my last comment just a bit. There were 2 commissioners who did seem to listen, and seem to be more interested in us than the rest. Not that it did any good, but they did seem to try. These are the ones whose term is ending next year. Too bad it couldn't have been the others!
Keep questioning. You can go to meetings and ask things.
Sometimes its also in how you ask the question.
There are people in town - office holders - who are good at answering the question that is asked but not actually giving out any information.
and sometimes "maybe" is the truth :)
A huge frustration for me is just manpower. We just dont have enough people. I can only do so much.
You can say "it just takes five minutes" but thats just five minutes in an already 12-hour long day.
We are shorthanded yet again at the Traveler. I need a photographer and freelance writers.
Give me a call if you want to give it a try.
You never know if you have a hidden talent.
They are going to do what they want, to who they want, whenever they want. And there is nothing any of us can do to change it.
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I really dont agree with that.
Too many people have that attitude, which essentially gives them a free pass.
I have seen people change things by showing up.
They have their worksession in a small room, essentially in the city manager's office.
If there were more people they would have to move it into the larger chambers.
I would love to see that, even though it would be inconvenient for them.
Where they meet now they have a table, which they do need.
Anonymous said...
I too am feeling the negativity pretty hard. Especially, the "I'm going to move because XX" people. The grass is always greener on the other side. However, it is especially greener if you don't do anything about your own grass. Or ignore the fact that your neighbor puts in a lot of effort to make his grass green.
I was raised here but have not lived here my whole life. I can tell you that taxes are high everywhere and if you lack education then you will have a low paying job any place you live. That, for better or worse, is the way the world works these days.
March 7, 2008 8:40 AM
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I am the poster leaving this place. You can call me uneducated, or ignorant, or a moron or what ever you want to call me. I really don't care. I have to smile at the talk and the plans and the condesending attitudes that some of you have. Buy I agree with at least one poster here. If questions aren't asked then we would all jump off the cliff one right after the other. Call it "naysayer" or "caveman" what ever you want to call it. It doesn't really matter. When taxes get too much for a poor ignorant soul (if that is what you chose to call me) to make it then something has to change. I have opted to downsize my property size to help me stay afloat in my retirement. "Moving" is going to provide that for me. The grass is not greener on the other side of the fence (any moron knows that) but it is closer to work. The only work this poor ignorant uneducated soul could find at the time. It does pay however much more than I could find anywhere in Arkcity. So I will leave. The house I have purchased has a third the tax I am paying here. And my gasoline expense is going down tremendously. Call me a naysayer, I call it being wise. All I can say to this worldly poster above is "have a good day and love thy neighbor!" BTW, I am not feeling the slightest bit negative, I am happy with my new home.
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