here are just some random thoughts based on the posts of the last couple of days.
Someone said something about getting dept. stores back downtown. I don't see that happening because our culture has changed. Department stores are no more. Now they are Walmart, Lowes, Kmart and so forth.
We cant recapture the golden age, the good old days, or whatever they were. We have to adjust.
At one point in Arkansas City people drove horses and buggies. We can't go back to that either as a way of life.
But here is what we can do.
THere are opportunities. I dont think we can expect the city to "do" things. The city can help people who are trying to do things, and I think that is where the answer is.
I did that concert last fall. The city helped by letting us borrow a stage and porta-poties. They also let us use the land.
But the committee - private citizens - did the actual work and made it happen.
That is how things have to go.
We need to have people with ideas and the intestinal fortitude to try something. The city can then help.
In general i think the city will help people do things.
We can make fairs happen, festivals happen, and those are good. THey are not the "answer" but they are part of the answer.
There isnt "an" answer. The answer is in a lot of little answers that make a big difference.
We do need businesses like eating establishments, shoe stores and so forth. Maybe someone can open one.
We need to try stuff.
I really believe that is the answer.
The city does need to cooperate and help out, but it is us that needs to actualliy do the work.
We can make things happen.
Posts
54 comments:
I think Ark City should have a big festival once a year and offer all kinds of weird food such as: crocodile meat, frog legs, turtle soup, chocolate ants, pickled pigs feet, funnel cakes, hot dogs, french fries, french toast, frenches mustard, pistachio ice cream, chicken fried steak, turkey laigs, cracklins, pork rinds, vienna sausages, sardines, tamales, tacos, burritos, enchiladas, sanchos, chittlins, corn on the cob, corn off the cob, steak, bake potato, sour cream, butter, chives, Capn Crunch, Snickers, crackers and milk, bbq ribs, bbq brisket, bbq sausages, bbq chicken, bbq pork, and a cheeseburger.
what do you think?
We could call it the Barfalala.
nah it would never fly
When it comes to attractions I have heard over and over that Mountains and Oceans are the great attractors. Here in Ark City we have TWO rivers which should have great value as attraction but we don't use them at all.
According to the paper, last year Oxford got a grant to develop their riverfront for recreational purposes.
I've seen pictures in Brick's back room showing docks, canoes, and other things on our rivers. We have a magnificent resourse being wasted and I don't know how to change it. Currently the city is working on a hike bike trail to run along a portion of the levee. From West Chestnut to the South Madison bridge. This could be the start of further development along the river.
I would love to see this happen, but there is some concern in the commission that it is an expense we don't need. We do have a grant to pay for a large portion of it, and the city has already acquired property towards that end. The grant can still be returned if the commission decides against it.
I think a riverfront park or other developments would be a nice draw to our town. The Hike/Bike trail would be only the beginning of it. Of course, it could also be all that happens if someone doesn't step up and take advantage of it.
Patrick McDonald
You're going to have to be competitive for tourism. To bring in people from the most likely area, Ponca City, you would have to have something significantly better than Lake Ponca and Kaw Lake Recreational area. It's a no brainer. If the river development would be for tourism, don't waste the money.
It's a no brainer. If the river development would be for tourism, don't waste the money.
IT doesn't have to be "better." It only needs to be different. Better is in the eye of the beholder.
Also its not just for tourism.
Developing the river front would be different enough to attract people, but i dont really see that as tourism.
It could if you had something like river trips from wichita or oxford. There's a business waiting for someone to start:) float trips or canoe trips dwon the river.
But the river development would be for people that are here. It would be one thing that would attract people who might consider moving here.
It would raise the quality of life and make the city more attractive to business and potential homeowners.
Im not convinced that tourism is a legitimate thing for us. We need businesses to do that, such as river trips, horseback riding, ranch type stuff.
THen local businesses could start to support that.
We also have a very rich history that could be promoted and used as an attraction.
Its all there just waiting to be developed.
NOTE TO PATRICK : How can we, the citizens, "encourage" the commission to finish the hike and bike path on the levee.
How much time is left?
If we do turn back another grant it will be a chilly afternoon in August in ARk city before we get another one.
:)
The question still stands. There have been all kinds of talk about it, explanations of how long it takes, how hard it is, what it costs, how difficult it is for people to understand, etc. but still no answer.
Every other city in the US is engaged in recruiting retail and industry for their towns and marketing their towns to businesses through trade fairs, magazines and mail-outs.
Is there an answer to who (if anyone)is doing this, what is being done, what actual contacts have been made, is there any real plan for retail and industrial development (ie. where..., TIFs, etc.)?
Or maybe we've hit it on the head as to why Ark City hasn't been growing.
The problem may be easier to fix than we've thought.
Is there an answer to who (if anyone)is doing this, what is being done, what actual contacts have been made, is there any real plan for retail and industrial development (ie. where..., TIFs, etc.)?
>>>
I really want to find the answer to that (those) question (s) as well.
Just my opinion. There are several groups that are working in this area. Cowley First, Chambers of Commerce, and so forth.
What we lack is an overall effort. I am not sure how well they coordinate their efforts.
I dont think we have a real plan either.
At a recent worksession meeting, city manager Doug Russell talked about targeting a certain area of business or industry, and going after that aggressively.
Sounded like a good idea to me. :)
"NOTE TO PATRICK : How can we, the citizens, "encourage" the commission to finish the hike and bike path on the levee.
How much time is left?
If we do turn back another grant it will be a chilly afternoon in August in ARk city before we get another one."
The only thing I can suggest is to contact each and every commissioner and tell them how you feel about it and what you think the advantages are.
Not to stir up trouble, but it might not go over well. Asking for it may set the commissioners against it (as in Lowe's). But that is the only way to bring them on board. Gather all the facts you can, work out the pros and cons, then present your case to the commission. Petitions are a way to get a lot of people involved, or just have as many as interested speak out at the work sessions and meetings.
These are the typical ways of the community expressing itself to the commission. I honestly don't know what kind of response people would get on any subject from any of the commission besides myself.
Patrick McDonald
"Or maybe we've hit it on the head as to why Ark City hasn't been growing."
Perhaps you're right. On the other hand there are several different types of growth and most people only have one vision of it. Some even completely eliminate certain types of business or industry. I've tried to be as open as I can be and accepting of every opportunity that has presented itself.
I've seen a lot of action in the commission lately with various commissioners presenting ideas and suggestions. I just hope they continue to follow through.
I was very disappointed when the Lowe's deal fell through. After a few years and a lot of work on a rare opportunity it was very disheartening. That door is closed and it is time to move on to the next one. Right now there are no opportunities in sight, but that doesn't mean we can't make them. We are on a roll, something will break soon. Whether it is small or large, we have to keep moving forward.
Patrick McDonald
"But the river development would be for people that are here. It would be one thing that would attract people who might consider moving here."
If they're going to spend maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars on developing the riverfront (which floods occasionally) they should instead buy some land and give it to the first developer that would build affordable upscale housing for people to live in. That would go a long way toward encouraging people to move to town.
There's a lot that's really good about Ark City, particularly the entertainment: fairs, Arkalalah, car show, etc. and that probably doesn't need much improvement. But shopping and housing?.... Totally different story.
Patrick:
Good reply, but still no answer.
Is there someone in the city who has a job duty to market and recruit business and/or industry?
Does anyone from the city do mail-outs or go to trade fairs on behalf of Ark City?
Now that there has been time to decompress from the Lowes proposal, is there any actual real plan for retail development or industrial development, ie.: locations to promote, etc. or will the next deal be "make up the rules as we go" as was the last one?
Fair question.
As one of his many duties, the city manager would be the person at the forefront of attracting new business. He acts on behalf of the commission's wishes. If he is directed to work towards a certain goal he will. That being said, you could really say that the commission directs what emphasis is placed on attracting business and industry.
The city does delegate a good part of that work by helping to finance the Chamber, Cowley First, and other organizations that work towards bringing in new business and industry.
Cowley First is very active at looking for queries on locations for new and expanding business. They have responded to several just in the last few months.
The Chamber guides the CVB through attracting and maintaing fairs and shows and such. Commissioner Margolius spoke out on behalf of Connie Kimsey of the CVB on the job she is doing around the state to make Ark City an attraction.
We have a lot of competition out there. No matter what we do, we will still have the competition of other and larger towns. To gain an edge it will take time, dollars, effort and a whole lot of belief in our town.
We can grow and make a difference, but we will have to put negativity behind us, and work together. If we don't make an all out effort, we won't ever get that edge we need to bring what we want to Ark City.
Patrick McDonald
Patrick:
There is a big difference between responding to queries and actively recruiting.
My reference to trade fairs was not regarding bringing fairs to town, but referred to someone representing Ark City at industry shows where all the other towns present their wares to industries.
My concern about the plan is if Ark City were to recruit and market (which it apparently isn't doing now) what would be the areas and incentives they would use as a marketing basis? If there is no formal plan, how can they ever market and recruit?
I know Ponca City is deeply involved with trade fairs as are many other towns the size of Ark City.
You are right on the money with the comment that there is tough competition out there from other towns. If Ark City is not actively doing something, then the other towns will get the business that Ark City misses.
It seems that the chamber may have mixed directives on bringing in new business. A large part of their funding comes from local merchants. What was their position on the Lowes?
So I'm presuming that there is nobody on the city staff marketing Ark City. Is it down to the chamber of commerce and Cowley First, which is shared between the ABCDE, Strother, Winfield, etc. for all marketing of Ark City?
That would be correct. And I see much sense in it. By combining our resources we have more dollars and direct manpower to work toward this. That also means that we have less control over where anything might go in the county, all things being fair.
The commission did discuss recently using or possibly acquiring land for a city owned industrial park. This would make land available at low or no cost to "industry" (I don't believe the present commission would give any kind of break to retail unless it is home grown).
There has been an incentive policy that has been in the works for at least 6 months that a commissioner has been going over for grammatical problems. The individual incentives are state policies and cannot be changed. The idea of the package is to be able to hand it to prospective business and "industry" so they can see what they qualify for and what fits them. As seen in the Lowe's situation, being qualified does not mean the city would grant the incentive. It just explains the various incentives, how to qualify and how to start them.
The commission has also discussed setting up an economic development board. I am not sure who would be qualified to be on it, or how such a board would be effective. Whether we wish to put money into it for reaching out, or just an unfunded volunteer board like our others. If we had someone knoweledgable and experienced I can see how they might involve developers, real estate agents, and local industry in drawing new business or some directly related to business or industry we already have. There is also the possibility of working with groups that already have these things formed as does Ark City Industries, or large commercial real estate companies.
Dare we look to one direction and goal? How can we open ourselves up for multiple opportunities? What can we do to make ourselves more attractive to business and industry. These are questions that need a hard look. I don't think we have advisors available to answer all of these questions. The city manager has some training and experience, some of our commissioners have some business experience, the college has people with some experience in the field. Maybe we can pull everything we have together, be open minded, and create some goals and direction related specifically to bringing in business and "industry".
But for right now, I think you're right. We don't have a plan. We have been trying to take advantage of opportunities as they come up, but we have no formal plan.
Patrick McDonald
While everyone is thinking about it, there are a number of incentives which can be given a retailer other than a tax abatement (although that is available in the designated areas for some purposes, ie.: most of town, really).
Ponca has been seen out on the streets offering free rent and my guess is that it wasn't necessarily out of their pocket alone.
My guess, knowing which building it was, etc. is that they marketed an empty building to a business and negotiated a sweetheart deal between the owner and the prospective business.
There are many ways to recruit if you get creative. Does the city maintain a dialogue with the owners of the empty buildings? Maybe there is something that could be done there.
But on the other hand, if it is nobody's job, then it is all impossible.
In any case, Patrick, keep up the good work.
By the way.
The last thing Ark City needs is another (*%$#@##!!) board or commission. Make it someone's job and if they sit around and play office and don't accomplish anything, then replace them until you find someone who can succeed.
"By the way.
The last thing Ark City needs is another (*%$#@##!!) board or commission. Make it someone's job and if they sit around and play office and don't accomplish anything, then replace them until you find someone who can succeed."
I understand what you are saying, but I believe it will take the knowledge and experience of several people to keep the doors open to all possibilities. I'm not sure the taxpayers are willing to pay for this. The advantage to a board is that volunteers only do it because they want to and have a personal interest in accomplishing its goals. The hard part if finding volunteers with the training or experience to know what to do and how to do it.
In any case, doing anything is better than doing nothing.
Patrick McDonald
"In any case, doing anything is better than doing nothing."
Absolutely!
When does it start?
""In any case, doing anything is better than doing nothing."
Absolutely!
When does it start?"
Ask the rest of the commission, I'm pedaling as fast as I can. Or better yet jump in anytime! I've been working on contacting various retailers to get them to come to town for years. I've worked through the city on a variety of projects including
the revamped motels on the north end of town which doubled the income to the CVB board
worked for more than 2 years on the Lowe's (big box) project
worked or the past 5 years with the chamber on more activities (sidewalk sales, late night sales, renaissance fair, and many other projects)
spun off 2 local retailers from my own business
helped to start the city incentive policies which this commission has yet to approve
and a number of other things. I'd like to do a lot more if I had time. There are a lot of things I'd still like to see.
A main streed program downtown.
Passenger rail service
more recreational access to the rivers
more retail stores
and a lot more.
More people need to get involved. A Main Street association cannot be run by the city (per their rules), but could receive a number of grants and other help. People need to be more vocal about what they want. More people need to get involved in making it happen. If you want sweeping changes we will need as many people involved as we can get. Organize, create local committees, pick leaders to speak for you on each subject, but most importantly just get involved.
Patrick McDonald
Hire one person and make them accountable! Bring back Lane Massey! The man had vision and was very capable. Remember he was able to get the old packing house taken down with a grant from KDOT! Now that is creative thinking. Here is your first challenge, recruit and invest your money in someone that knows how!
"Ask the rest of the commission, I'm pedaling as fast as I can."
But we know how the rest of the commission will go, don't we?
"Hire one person and make them accountable!"
I too believe that is the only solution. Hire someone who will git-er-done.
With boards, commissions and committees you completely lose accountability and responsibility. When things aren't done there is nobody that takes any blame or knuckles down to fix it. Even big projects get torpedoed and commissions don't feel the need to make them right. Commissions may be one of the big reasons Ark City is stuck.
Ark City needs someone on the payroll who can take the bull by the horns and follow through.
You've had it in the past, you need it now.
I'll go along with that, and if that's the people's wish I'll do my best to see to it. I think you might have a little trouble getting it past the other commissioners. I would suggest you start working on them right away.
By the way, Lane Massey left for a completely different kind of position and last I spoke to him was very happy in his new field. I don't think he would come back. Zach Mohr did a wonderful job after Lane, but as with all well qualified people, he was offered a job a city manager and moved up in the world.
Undoubtedly there is someone out there. Whether people want to pay for them with tax dollars or not I do not know. Whether the commission as a body would go for it, again I have no idea. It would be worth presenting though. There will be a goal setting session after the next work session, I will bring it up then. I would recommend that you contact each of the other commissioners and try to get them on board as soon as possible if you have a group that wants to move forward with this.
Patrick McDonald
Comment posted from the "Petitions" blog:
This original post and comments are about to disappear into history. Covered up with other blogs and comments. I think this is probably the biggest shame in recent history for our town. A lot of people expressed their opinions in print with a signature to last forever only to be completely dismissed without a word or sign. This is very extreme. I can't believe it is going to slide by, under the rug as James would put it. The box deal may be over, but the commissioners ignoring and neglecting the citizens that did put out an effort is unbelievable.
The most important thing is it will all just slowly disappear. As Kuhn would have put it WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?
If you don't speak out now, you will never get another chance. The next time they walk over you they won't even have to think twice about it.
Dottie Smith must be smoking wacky tabacky if she thinks the actions of the "3 amigos" has brought the town together.
Patrick, Don't give up so easily with Lane Massey. Maybe someone could pick up the phone and try to RECRUIT him, these means we might have to make offers for him or others to consider. I know there are several skilled and successful grant writers in the city organization, have they been tapped for info or input? Sometimes the best solutions are in our own backyards, you just have to be willing to take a risk and look outside the box.
"""If they're going to spend maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars on developing the riverfront (which flo$ods occasionally)""""
There's no need for it to cost that much. when someone says "develop" people think of some great big thing.
Im thinking a walking trail or two. a couple park benches, maybe a small dock to fish from and put canoes in ...
probably could be done for a few thousand, and even less with volunteer labor..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But shopping and housing?.... Totally different story.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, but how do you get there. its a chicken and egg thing.
to get shopping and housing you have to provide the market, maybe small river development would help in that regard ?
having a formal plan sounds like a really good idea.
also, targeting certain areas sounds good.
the city manager has a lot of duties. does he have time to actively pursue businesses and development ?
maybe hiring a business and development guru would be good .. but find someone who can get it done.
thats my two cents :)
The more attractive our town is the more people move here and the more business will come here.
If we have a town with nice amenities we will draw people away from the more urban areas. As we draw people with skills we will also attract more business, retail and industry.
One of the key factors is the negativity. Who would want to move to a town where the people that live there will tell you it is the biggest stink hole in Kansas?
And it is totally untrue! We have one of the nicest towns in Kansas. People just like to talk it down, and at the same time scare away anyone that might want to move here.
Let's turn it around. Start with attitude first. People that think we can make something here need to let it be known!
Excellent point.
The negativity needs to go, and most of it isnt true anyway, like you said.
When I live in south carolina, we would come here to visit my wife's mom in Winfield. I thought Winfield was really nice mostly because of Island Park.
As a visitor, it didn't matter to me that they had a tiny walmart and not much in the way of shopping or eating places. but Island park was cool :)
"people that live there will tell you it is the biggest stink hole in Kansas?"
I don't think anyone is saying that Ark City is a bad place.
It is a real mistake to say that everything is perfect and no changes need to be made.
Ark City is a nice little town, but because of old housing, low paying jobs and limited shopping opportunities, it has been in financial decline, as is indicated in a number of studies, one of which is discussed here.
Nobody except retirees will move to Ark City just because it is a nice town.
They will move here because of work opportunities and will be looking at a number of things, specifically how well the schools are rated, what goods and services are available to them, and where they will live.
Ark City is a beautiful town with rolling hills and quaint brick streets. What is not to like? If you've lived in town a long time and have never gotten out of town for any length of time it will seem like Ark City has everything.
America has changed a lot in the last 20 years, particularly in places other than Kansas.
Workers who would come to town from larger cities are in the 25 to 45 age group and they have become accustomed to a different lifestyle where they get coffee at Starbucks, have business lunches at Bennigan's and won't take the family to eat at the mall because it isn't nice enough.
A nice older house is considered to be one that was built in the mid seventies.
This is the vision that someone moving to Ark City will have.
If you look at Hutchinson, Enid or Ponca City 40 years ago, you wouldn't see much difference between them and Ark City. But if you look today, you will see that Ark City has been left behind and according to the growth study, that is turning into a problem.
It's important to not confuse negativity with the statement that things need to change to improve the town.
In fact, people who are pushing for improvement are exactly the opposite of negativity. Think about it. Nobody should stand in their way. They are trying to make things better.
To the poster above.. I am in the lower end of the age range that you speak of and I am not interested in any of those things. I don't think I have ever stepped foot in a Benigan's and I have lived in small, medium and very large towns.
I think that the tide has changed and young people are looking for walkable communities, a unique place to live that is not outrageously expensive, and not full of (only)the typical chain stores.
If you go the city data forums website http://www.city-data.com
/forum/kansas
most people who post on there are not asking about chain stores in relation to a move to Kansas.
They want to know about crime rates and many people DO NOT want to live in sterilized suburbs. In fact, in a lot of posts inquiring about Wichita people specifically say that they do NOT want to live in Andover or Derby.
A nice older house is definitely not one built in the 70's. I dislike most of all houses built in the 70's. I would much prefer many of Ark City's older homes. Most of the hot, trendy neighborhoods in American cities are those in older areas. For example, Sugar house in Salt Lake City, Brookside in Tulsa and Kansas City, the Pearl District in Portland are all thriving older neighborhoods.
We would be much better off to revitalize the older parts of town and keep the uniqueness than trying to sprawl out like Ponca City, Enid or Hutchinson. This can include chain stores but there is absolutely no reason why they cannot work within the current infrastructure of the city. We do not need to create more empty retail shopping centers. We need to utilize and become more efficient with space we already have. The new meat market is a perfect example.
Please read up on National housing trends. It was the thing to do 20 years ago to sprawl out and bring chain store developments to town. Urban flight was a huge problem. Now people want the efficiency and convenience of mixed use housing and retail without sprawl. Ark City missed out on that trend but we could be the forerunners in creating a smart growth, walkable community.
And please, please don't tell me that I am not with the times..and that America is a changing place.. yada, yada, yada. I get it. That doesn't mean that Ark City has to "change" in the same way as everyone else.
Let's look outside of the box...
You sound like you're totally comfortable and compatible with Ark City. That's great.
Don't get me wrong: I have enjoyed the heck out of being able to walk to the hardware store, auto parts house, etc.
But:
Ark City is shrinking. People are moving away to have better jobs, housing and goods. (Don't believe me, just read the study) It is a grand theory that America is going to have big demand for walkable downtowns with no modern conveniences, but the reality is people are leaving places like that behind.
In a town that is one and a half miles long, suburban sprawl is a phrase that makes no sense at all.
Look around you. Where is this place where people are flocking to that doesn't have modern retailers and new housing, where pre-world war and turn of the century housing is greatly revered and where the population is growing? (Especially in Kansas.)
If Ark City gets new businesses and new employers, that will just mean that the retailers you walk to downtown will have a bigger customer base and have a better chance of being around in the future.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do a trend line on the economic report to know where it is all going. Wake up and see the facts.
It is fine to pipe-dream "out of the box" about an imaginary utopia, but Ark City needs hard-nosed clear headed direction to stop its decline.
Finally some sense!
You're going to have to talk a lot louder though, because there are at least 3 commissioners that are not going to listen to you. Maybe even if you yell in their ear.
That is just not true. Google downtown populations and you will find that they are increasing tremendously. Of course, I will concede that these are far larger cities but it illustrates my point that urban sprawl is dead. Young people want to live in places with vibrant downtowns. They do not want to live in a place that just has an Applebee's and a Lowe's.
Downtown Lawrence has condos and loft buildings.
If you drive to Newkirk you will notice that several of their downtown buildings have people living there.
You will see this trend increasing more in the next 10-20 years as energy prices will continue to rise.
Here is a survey from the National Realtor association describing what people look for when they decide to take a job.
http://www.realtor.org/
press_room/news_releases/2004/
americancomntysurvey04.html
Sorry, but I don't agree with your facts regarding people not wanting to live in Andover, Rose Hill, Derby, etc. Some of the younger people from this area and who are still employed in this area are moving there and commuting back. I had a neighbor who is an engineer for a local company. Paid $550/mo. rent. They moved to Derby - he works here she got a job in Wichita. Both college educated. Their reasoning for moving to Derby was to purchase a house in a newer development where the investment would appreciate or at least retain its value.
The problem with the older parts of this area is they are energy inefficient, and with rising tax valuations the realtors are asking and getting the high end prices, but in many cases the structures
are not sound. Bad foundations, vynl siding over bad walls etc. (flip homes). With the already high price there leaves no room to borrow against the value to make the necessary improvments. The fact is that if these areas are not properly improved you will see them decline at a more rapid rate! (Older parts of town and older structures).
The point that concerns me the most is that we are not only falling behind in growth of business and industry but with an aging population the decline will accelerate as the older population allows us less choices due to fixed income and death.
So in a sense you fighting the cost to maintain/improve an aging infrastructure, the increased cost as related to an aging population and the cost to grow with more than likely with a shrinking population. What might be cheap now - and realtive to incomes its not - will get more expensive.
That "WINDOW OF Opportunity" is probably getting smaller every year and the cost to change/even maintain is rising with inflation.
I just drove down Rose Hill road today South of the 54 intersection and they are clearing and plotting with flags new developement!
If anything higher energy costs will create a faster migration out of our area if we don't WAKE UP!
"I think that the tide has changed and young people are looking for walkable communities,"
If the listed web article is the basis for this, you might want to read the article again and check the facts.
It said people don't prefer communities with single family dwellings on one acre lots ("sprawling communities") over areas which have nearby access to schools and markets ("walkable communities").
I can't imagine how that would apply to possible growth or anything at all to do with Ark City or retail development. I don't think there is any proposal to convert Ark City to one acre lots.
It says:
"Those who are in the market to buy a home are also more likely to say they want to be in or near a city as opposed to living in a farther out suburb or rural area."
Might do a re-read. The article doesn't support your position.
Among people planning to buy a home in the next three years, 87 percent place a high importance on a shorter commute as their top priority. Asked to choose between two communities, six in ten prospective homebuyers chose a neighborhood that offered a shorter commute, sidewalks and amenities like shops, restaurants, libraries, schools and public transportation within walking distance over a sprawling community with larger lots, limited options for walking and a longer commute.
The point being, that when you have a large sample from a study you can to certain extent apply that to the population as a whole.
It said they were more likely to not want to live in a rural area but it didn't say that if they were to live in a rural area that they wouldn't want the same things.
Also, the article does not define a "rural area". That can mean different things to different people. My husband grew up in a town without a street light, no grocery store and about 500 people to me that is rural America at its most stereotypical. In fact, if you go by the definition of the census bureau Ark City is a Urban Cluster or micro area. Ark City does not meet their definition of rural, which is a town of less than 2500.
The basis of the article still stands that 87% of the people would like to live where they can walk.
If you are looking at building standard, modern day housing then you are looking at building a large subdivision on the outskirts of town. That would be pretty much what 87% of the respondents in the study say they didn't want.
"With costs being equal, a smart growth community was described for purposes of this survey as a mix of apartments, condos, townhouses and single-family detached houses on various sized lots with sidewalks and places to shop, eat, read and go to school within walking distance."
I am in no way against upgrading and building new homes in Ark City.. the housing situation there is pretty bad. I am also not against new retail/industry coming in town. We just need to work with developers on making the town something great instead of "doing it the way it is always done".
We have missed the last 20-30 years in terms of how cities in the United States are developing. They become sprawled out like Ponca City and people are beginning to reject that. "There's no question that we're at the threshold of a reformation in land-use planning—not just in the United States but around the world," says Honachefsky, who has nearly 35 years of experience in environmental protection and land-use planning.
We have to look beyond the last 20 years to the future if you won't to live in a diverse, thriving community.
This is not an unreachable, utopian society. There are plenty of examples of towns doing this all over the country- including Greensburg, KS. They are basically rebuilding the town on the basis of green building principles.
When they are talking about suburbs, they are talking about real suburbs in real cities where people have to drive an hour through heavy traffic each way to get to work.
They define sprawling neighborhoods as "single family one acre lots", like they have in Connecticut and New Jersey, outside of N.Y.C and in the valley around L.A., a phenomenon which hasn't hit Kansas at all. Think Martha Stewart's home and the community surrounding it.
It's important to get out some. The more you know about America, the more you will see that Ark City is considered to be a rural town that one would need to commute from, rather than where one might "commute" from Central Avenue to Radio Lane.
No matter how it is stretched and spun, it really doesn't say what you're trying to make it say. Maybe find another article, but this one isn't it.
I don't even live in Ark City!!! I grew up there and trust me I have been outside the town for awhile, which includes a 5 year stint in New York City.
I have also lived in CT and other small towns and traveled to both small and large towns across the world.
My comments are coming from someone on the outside looking in not inside looking out.
I had planned to move back within the next year for several reasons and one of those being that I could walk to many places. Being a fourth generation Ark Citian much of my who I am is because of the town. I have nothing but the most sincere and thought out intentions in my comments. I don't take things lightly and I do a ton of research before floating my opinions out there.
People who live in other parts of the country want these type of neighborhoods. In many places, they are the neighborhoods with the most appreciation. If you want to increase your population and recruit industry/people to town then you must look at outside trends.
I would suggest the same thing to you get out and look around at what is happening in other parts of the country not the just the Ponca/Winfield/Ark City line.
And, while I understand the article is speaking about large suburbs (which I admit I dislike) it does not mean that you cannot apply the sentiments to Ark City.
I am sure that Ponca was a beautiful town at one point but because of bad or non-exist urban planning it is just one giant strip of ugly buildings after the hospital.
"My comments are coming from someone on the outside looking in not inside looking out."
If you've been away for a while, and come back to town, you would notice a number of women's and men's wear shops closed, appliance and furniture stores closed and a jewelry store gone as well. The Goodwill used clothing store is now where On Cue Music was and the Salvation Army resale shop is where David's Furnishings and Appliances was.
What was a slight decline in the past seems to be coming on pretty strong and Ark City has some major catch-up to do.
With the recent torpedoing of the Lowes, it has come to light that Ark City doesn't now have and hasn't had any plan for development and has a number of Commissioners who are actually opposed to any incentives to large outside retailers coming into town.
Let's face it. There is no demand for downtown residences in Ark City. If there ever is, they can move in at any time, or buy the properties for not much money.
There is a beautiful old bank building with a sandstone turret which would make a great home office and a 1 1/2 story eyebrow window that would be fantastic for a dining room. But sadly, the reality is its windows are covered with barn aluminum and nobody lives there except the pigeons. The historic AC office building with rosetta granite,walnut baseboards and real terrazzo floors is now completely closed and has broken out windows where rain gets into the building.
Some might take the urban sprawl stuff to mean that Ark City doesn't need more retailers at the edge of town, new employers or new housing, but nothing could be further from the truth.
I know you said your comments are from the heart and mind, and I certainly understand idealism, but maybe consider the situation a little bit.
Ark City needs a plan and some action now to turn its future around.
I was just in Ark City in December for 3 weeks and was there for Arkalalah. My family still lives there and I have been there at a minimum of twice a year for the last six years since I left the OK/KS area.
I know exactly what the situation is...
So, in your argument my thoughts on the matter are flawed because at one point you believed that I lived in Ark City and never got out or they are flawed because I haven't been there in the last 10 years.
Where you see problems I see opportunities, which is the definition of entrepreneurial thinking. And that my friend is what Ark City needs people with vision and spirit who think creatively.
My stance is that some people believe that the only way to develop the town is to sprawl further North.
Anyway, I think the debate on the matter is incredibly healthy for the town and hopefully it can come to some sort of smart, progressive master plan that integrates several types of development.
The only thing I thought was flawed was the application of what is going on in huge cities that have true urban sprawl which extends for sometimes 50 miles, to the problems of Ark City which even if it doubled in size couldn't ever be considered to be "sprawling".
It's apples and oranges.
Whether it was not getting out or some other reason, I have no clue what the perception was, but Ark City is clearly not Salt Lake City, Tulsa or KC and that is pretty obvious.
The article said one thing and with double negative non-sequiturs was presented as something else. maybe the article was misunderstood, but it isn't about whether a rural town should expand.
We are on the same page about the need for a plan. But if a master plan means there will be numerous City coffee and doughnuts meetings and it all will be eventually tabled or thrown out as so many things have been, then I am against that process.
It's time to actually accomplish something.
Yes, I think we can again agree that a viable master plan should be created and it should be put into place and not discarded. Who knows this might already exist from some previous donut and coffee session.
I think are disagreement more lies in the definition of sprawl. The suggestion that Ark City would not be considered sprawling even if it doubled in size is not exactly accurate.
Sprawl is basically inefficient use of land. It doesn't matter if that land is 5 miles or 100 miles from a major metropolitan area. Sprawl is not confined to the suburbs. If you are using space inefficiently than it is sprawl period. If the developments you create are entirely dependent on the use of automobiles than it is sprawl.
Currently, you cannot walk to the movie theater in either Winfield or Ark City. You are forced to drive there that by most definitions would be sprawl.
Anyway, here is an interesting article on the definition of sprawl:http://www.michiganlanduse.org/
resources/councilresources/
Sprawl_SmartGrowth.pdf
You seem almost as passionate about the subject as I am. It would be great to discuss this further if you are interested then you can e-mail me at downtownfan@gmail.com
I think we've hit on the development paradox. Modern businesses view downtown buildings as the kiss of death. The reason the movie theater is at Strother is they let the 2 in town theaters deteriorate so badly that nobody would go to them.
The only chain use of a turn-of-the -century building I've seen (outside of Manhattan (big apple), where it is almost mandatory) was a McDonalds in a theater in Raleigh (or maybe Durham, I don't really remember). It wasn't very busy and there seemed to be a real compromise in service.
A business like Lowes won't locate downtown, so it eliminates most of the options for that. It doesn't really matter either. If a really popular business went in downtown, there wouldn't be parking spaces for them anyway.
The best solution, I think, is a little of this and a little of that. Recruiting small businesses for downtown doesn't mean you can't simultaneously recruit larger national stores as well.
If that contributes to sprawl then shoot me.
"If you wake up in the morning and get ready to go, you see the world in front of you." "There is no reason you cannot be successful."
By the way. Based on good authority, there is no plan. There has not been a plan. Every day is just a new day in Ark City, filled with wonderous and mysterious happenings.
Really guys, its time for a plan.
Previous quote by Mell Kuhn.
I never once suggested that Lowe's would need or want to locate downtown.
It isn't about downtown vs. North (beyond the hotel) of town and that the only solution is one or the other. It is about efficient use of space.
They are plenty of empty lots or lots with completely derelict/abandoned buildings. There is absolutely no reason why would should have to make an either or choice.
A plan for development growth (in terms of real estate space) is needed is by a competent urban planner. Not another study or a planning commission but a master plan for development. If it was up to me it would be done by someone who leans toward smart growth :)
If you've ever been 'out' and come back... you'll see things differently.
Someone once said the definition of insanity is:
Continuing to do the same things and expecting something different.
Sorry people, talk is cheap. Negativity is expensive. It costs more than what you think. It costs to remain the same. Progress without incurring expense... Hahaha. Every single day you live it costs you more. Dream BIG & Pay Less, I don't think so. But good luck to you all that think we can make Ark City a better place without incurring some expenses.
Someway, somehow!!!
All I'm saying is this:
If you want INCREASE, then your thought process must change. Sometimes all it takes is believing that we can do better.
(this is my 5 cents)
Sometimes all it takes is believing that we can do better.
>>>>
May not be all it takes, but it surely is the starting point.
wanting to do better is also essential.
ive said it before, attitude is arkansas city's biggest problem.
but to change the city's attitude, it starts with one person changing.
"Someone once said the definition of insanity is:
Continuing to do the same things and expecting something different."
You got it.
There is only one thing more stupid:
"Continuing to do nothing and expecting things to change for the better."
This is the first time that there has been an ongoing discussion about change and improvement. I think it can help.
Agreed! Agreed! Agreed!
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