Several good ideas have been brought up in the blogs. THe discussion seems to be going along fine without me, and that's not a bad thing.
What I noticed though, is a continued stream of negativity that seems to run throughout.
As someone said, it is easy to point fingers and find the problems. That is something that should be done, but if you don't take it a step further, there isn't much point.
I would like to see it go further, into the stage of action.
There are things that can be done. We can start a main street association. THere is some interest there, and Ill be interested to see if it comes about.
We could also have public meetings of our own, and then take ideas to the city.
But even failing that, people can act without the city's involvement.
Who is willing to actually take action, to take a risk?
Who will lead?
Posts
76 comments:
In the case of the Main Street Program, the city is not allowed to be the sponsor (per the program). They understand that if the community is not actively involved the program cannot work.
There is a lot of good information on their website: www.mainstreet.org
A group of people will have to step up and form a Board and elect a Chairman. The Main Street group has a full program of how to accomplish each step. They also have ideas and suggestions of how to create funding for the process.
I have heard from at least one person who will step up to this. I hope more will become involved.
With a little help from James and some other community leaders maybe we can get it off the ground.
Patrick McDonald
If you are interested in being part of a group to from a main street association please e-mail me at:downtownfan@gmail.com
I would like to get things rolling but there is a lot of work involved and it will take more than 1 or 2 people.
If you really are interested in helping the town both economically and aesthetically than this could be a great opportunity.
You can read about the Winfield program here:http://www.winfield
mainstreet.com/
I'll start. I read one poster who had a lot of good things to say that made sense. Their post was under the "Thoughts" blog. on January 24, 1:13pm. I didn't agree with everything they said, but they weren't negative and they didn't point any fingers. They were just pointing out what they see as facts and took a sensible approach. Pat has good intentions but wants to do everything. He doesn't want to focus on any one thing for fear of missing out on something else because we need all of it.
I haven't heard any disagreement on our needing all of it.
Then, we have people asking who will step forward and lead. We need leaders right now because we haven't had any leaders in the past? Is that a reasonable conclusion to draw since it now appears that there is no plan in place to grow the town? Why point the finger at those who are in government at the moment? Pat points out in another post that he sees a great vacuum of personal responsibility. He is right. Where are the people stepping up to the plate to make things happen? People keep asking where do we go from here. James points out that we have a chicken and egg process. It all boils down to the fact that we have to start somewhere and we have little chances (and maybe ability) to make something happen. That makes it all the more important to have focused efforts. Pat's shotgun approach sounds nice, but we need a target rifle aimed at a few things. We can have several target rifles and they can be aimed at different things at the same time, but someone else said and they are right that we can't just have one thing going at a time. The laws of success and failure prove that we need to have at least 10 things going in order for even 1 of them to pan out.
There was the idea of having a new board or commission report to the commission. Then, just as quickly, a bunch of people stomped that out as having any merit. They said you have to have an expert, some individual who is responsible. They might should be the city manager or some other government employee. They pointed to Lane Massey who may have had some of the right necessary qualities for that kind of job. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." That just doesn't sound like a recipe for success. Maybe the answer is a blend of the two. One person simply can't do it all. How about one paid person who reports to the commission who has a 5 year term and can't be fired, who has a board or commission report to him. Then, maybe you give him the tools he needs in order to be successful.
People complain about the negativity, but what can be done about that? The answer to changing people's attitudes is that we have to get some successes under our belts. Quit navel gazing. Quit bellyaching about the past. We have a job to do and it requires a focus on the here and now and on the future. Quit comparing to Winfield. Quit worrying about the county. Quit bitching about illegals and people on welfare. Buckle down and get the job done. The plans are not that elusive but it will take more than just one mind to come up with an adequate plan of attack.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Thank you for the kind words. I don't want to try to work in ALL directions, just points of obvious opportunity. The first being who is interested in us, as was the developer's and Lowe's. The next being to make the best use of our assets. We do have a few!
We have plenty of land for development, both housing and industrial.
We have the casinos to the south and high traffic on 166 and 77 at the south end of town. This would be a great place for gas stations, convenience stores, motels, and other amenities. We just need to get the word out.
We have the neighborhood revitalization program which should be improving our housing stock. People should see value in making improvements to their homes. Developers should see a salable value in new homes with a 75% tax rebate. We just need to promote this program so more people will take advantage of it. Contractors should see considerable more work from this program as well.
We have 2 rivers that are barely being used. The hike/bike trail will open a good portion. If it goes well, we can continue with other river developments.
The Mainscape downtown made tremendous improvements to our appearance. It was a kick start to revitalizing downtown. It is up to the individual stores to continue this. Graves is the most prominent, but just a few doors south Brick Vining is remodeling a whole building. Midwest Electric is also getting a new facelift and some interior remodeling.
There have been a lot of improvements over the past few years, and many more that need to be made. Ark City is on a roll, and even the crushing of the Lowe's Development won't stop it.
Build on our strengths and get the word out. We have more to do, but we have the momentum to push to the next level. I am just hoping to keep rolling where we are strong rather than shooting off into unknown directions and taking on competition of thousands of other small towns.
There are many more things already going on that we have a good chance at. There is a lot of work to be done, but one way or another, we'll get it done.
Patrick McDonald
Good job!
I suggest the city hire the last poster.
It's the right attitude.
"The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them." - Albert Einstein
Well, actually not Patrick, but the poster before him. Patrick is already on board. I guess they could hire him but what would we do for a Commissioner? ; )
you guys are not going to do anything, you spend to much time in front of your computer reading this worthless sleeze blog,, i dont know how patrick gets anything done, every third post is his
The only person who has acomplished anything is James the Bible freek, he has all of you glued to his blog page
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -
-- John F. Kennedy
I've already been "hired" in a way. I am just sick of the naysayers. I want people to know that although there has been no plan, we are now making headway and the citizens will begin to see the results. The painful process of getting to the results stage is what keeps the level of frustration so high. There are enough good people who are interested and committed to getting something done that it WILL happen. The current incentives that Pat speaks of are NOT ENOUGH. In fact, they don't give us any tools that are sufficient to get the job done. That is where having our own industrial park comes in. People keep talking about amenities and they ARE valuable. However, only retirees move here for that. So, maybe the solution is to buy an industrial park with the hike-bike money instead of spending it on a one-way trail to nowhere. That money is enough buy land that will make a difference as well as to provide infrastructure to land that is not currently attractive. Isn't that a better long term investment. You will probably have naysayers like Jean complain about how that is a bad idea, but he is NOT in the majority. Ideal world is to have both the trail and the industrial park, but this is coming down to a question of priorities. There just is not enough money to spread around and get everything done. This is like the guy out hiking who gets caught in a landslide in the middle of nowhere with his arm pinned under a rock. Ideal world is someone finds him and he gets out alive and everything is fine. After being there three days he takes out his pocketknife and cuts off part of his arm. Sometimes it hurts to make the right decision when you are talking about survival and not just what is ideal.
Finally. Excellent.
I think they will find that the city has plenty of available property already for industry. There is a lot of land along the railroad tracks. The city received a request for part of it last year for residential use, but was turned down.
The people that want to waste taxpayer money buying more land for industry need to take a close look at what the city already has. Besides, other available land tends to be residential and not have good arterial street access.
Having additional industrial area won't make us any better than the thousands of other cities competing for the same businesses. We have to prove a greater value than they can get elsewhere. Rail and highway access. Tax incentives. A trained work force. A place to draw new employees (good schools, good retail, good housing...)
I appreciate the idea of wanting to start throwing money at the problem. That is always the first thought. Let's take a good look at where we want to INVEST our money to make sure we get something back from it.
Patrick McDonald
P.S. If there is another commissioner out there posting please let me know. I'll be glad to just sit back and watch.
it would be interesting to hear more debate on hike trail versus industrial park.
is there any "proof" or evidence that industries are looking to come here, which would justify a park.
we have 300-plus jobs unfilled in the county, where are these new industries going to get employees when existing industry can't find anyone ?
the trail is paid for via a grant. how many state grants do you think we will get in the future if we turn back a second one in about a year's time ?
i hope this gets some serious debate ?
sure sounds like there is another commissioner posting.
i have a guess as to who it is, but ... i won't say :)
Good lord... please don't throw away the hike and bike trail to put in an industrial park...
My husband and I are contemplating a move to Arkansas City. One of things I keep telling him is that there is going to be a hike and bike trail.
That is a real attraction for us. We are young, highly educated and those are the types of things that would attract us to the area. We ARE not retirees.
On an aside, did you happen to read the post about how retirees can be better for the local economy than Industry.
I am certainly not saying that Ark City doesn't need more high quality jobs but there ARE other forms of economic development. In fact, I am not even saying there can't be an Industrial Park. Are there a list of companies that are willing to come here if said Industrial Park exists?
You will not attract the type of workforce needed solely by the existence of the Industrial Park.
There ARE jobs all over the country. You will need more than just a job to attract new people.
You have partial grant money for the project and I can't imagine that it would even come close to the costs of putting in an Industrial Park..
Do either one of you have any budgets for both projects that could be posted?
Or some type of project plan for both projects?
The purchase of land is a new discussion brought about by pressure for economic development after the Lowe's deal was crushed. There has been nothing started other than to propose to look into the matter of an industrial park inside the city.
On the other hand, the city does own industrial land already. There are a few places around town as opposed to a "park". These places lie along the railroad tracks and along 166. They are prime for light or heavy industry.
Before throwing money at the problem, we may very well have a solution to already, I would like to put it to further research and discussion.
Whether or not we proceed with industrial development, I think we should continue with the hike/biike trail. The other poster must not have had time to research the project to find that this trail that starts NOWHERE and ends NOWHERE has a lot of potential. Many hiking trails are one way and you walk back. This particular trail has vehicle access at both ends to it can be used a number of ways. Floating the river down and walking back has been suggested. Walking down to lesser accessible areas for fishing or picnicking has been another suggestion. Walk down and ride back or walk down and back are both good choices. Only someone who is against it from the start refuses to look at the possibilites (and opportunities!).
Patrick McDonald
After looking around, it seems the 300 jobs must be BS. The companies must not be really trying to fill them. A quick search of Monster shows hundreds of Wichita, Hutch and Wellington jobs, but with the exception of Dollar store and the cellular company, nothing from Ark City. Maybe they aren't filled because they are not competitive, ie wages, benefits or otherwise.
If these are real jobs, the first step to Ark City growth is to fill them. Advertise nationally and work with the numerous training availabilities, ie college, agencies, etc.
At the risk of pedantically over explaining and over simplifying, the reason most towns have an industrial park is because it can financially benefit the town in many additional ways that an independent industry out in the county can't.
The city can lease land and buildings, have full control of taxes in the park, all the while using Industrial Revenue Bonds and other state and federal grants to build up the industries.
James is concerned that there is a missed opportunity for a grant to build a hike-bike trail.
The missed opportunity for grants on the hike-bike trail pales by comparison with the missed opportunities for grant and bond money, and the direct economic benefit to each and every taxpayer in Ark City which would be created by the industrial park. After time: lower taxes, better jobs.
Nobody will move to town because Ark City does or doesn't have a hike bike trail. If people did that, then Kaw Lake Recreation Area would have a population of 50,000. It just doesn't happen that way.
Ark City has easy access to the Chaplin Nature center, numerous city parks and fishing lakes, etc.
But, do a cost benefit analysis (in shorthand):
How many people per day would use the hike-bike? What is the additional ongoing cost of mowing, maintaining, repairing, policing, etc., plus the construction cost per person using the facility? What is the seasonal percentage where it could be used?
On the other hand, any industrial park would generate money, be available for grants, state and federal development funding, etc. and would pay the residents of Ark City through leases and taxes that would reduce everyone's residential property tax.
Would we turn down a large state or federal matching grant for something like a world's largest ball of twine or an ag grant to attempt to grow banana trees in Ark City?
Of course we would.
Just because it comes with a matching grant doesn't mean that the hike-bike trail is the best use of Ark City's money.
If there were unlimited money, it would be no contest: do both.
With limited money, Ark City should carefully consider which will be better for the most people for the longest period of time.
An industrial park can change the future of Ark City.
What good does an industrial park do if you have no incentives to locate in Arkansas City?
Land alone is not an incentive. One reason Winfield has been somewhat successful with the companies they have is that they provide reduced utility rates to their large industrial users. Winfield has their own electric and natural gas utilities so they can provide discounted rates to companies to locate in Winfield. What does Arkansas City have to offer?
Ark City has nothing to directly offer industry.
No plan, no industrial park, no incentives, no development interest: nothing.
That could change in a heartbeat.
There are all sorts of things which would be incentives for industries in Ark City.
BTW: it's not mandatory it is a "park". Could be numerous disconnected parcels which would work just fine, IMHO.
The thing that pulls it all together is the long term (approved ) plan and someone (or ones) working it and marketing it, along with the city's direct participation in industrial development.
I would like to know what the laws are pertaining to rental properties?
example.. in every town I've ever lived in, people couldn't rent out houses that were unsafe and unsound. There would have to be inspections, basic things like a stove would have to be provided by the landlord.
Are there building codes that pertain to rentals here?
When we first moved here, we had an extremely difficult time finding a place to rent because most places available wouldn't have passed any sort of inspection process where we came from.
I keep hearing about out of town owners but what concerns me is the number of people that live in town and are not properly taking care of the rentals they own.
If there are laws on the books, why are they not being enforced?
Part of attracting people to this area IS giving them even decent places to live.
Not everyone who comes here or is looking to come here start off buying.
If there isn't regulations, there needs to be and I would volunteer time to see that happen.
Just my 2 cents on improving Ark City. Obviously not the only solution, but a start.
Excellent post!
Yes, Ark City does have a building code for renters. There are definite requirements for a home to be habitable. The codes are enforced when they are reported.
That is the biggest problem. Very few houses are reported. Code Enforcement cannot just randomly go into homes to determine if they are habitable. They can identify some problems from the outside (bad roof, broken or missing windows and doors, etc...) though they don't look for those kind of problems unless it appears the building is being inhabited. Code Enforcement can inspect if it has been reported. That's the difficult part, people don't seem interested in reporting the problems. All it takes is a phone call.
441-4420
Or conatact a commissioner or go to the city website:
www.arkcity.org
click on City Government in the left column
click in Arkansas City Access in the left column
You can report it directly and check back to see how it is being followed up.
I agree that there are a number of housing problems in Ark City. Rentals are a part of the problem. The only way to take this on is for people to let the city know so they can be resolved one at a time.
Patrick McDonald
Whoever wrote these posts:
January 31, 2008 9:37 AM
and
January 31, 2008 10:16 AM
please contact:
fresh_start@arkcityhasjobs.com
"fresh_start@arkcityhasjobs.com"
I see that Twin Ryvers, USD 4777 (Dr. Grene Mallard),Larry the Carcus Guy and Coon Mechanical are hiring. Hmmm... I'm hoping that it is a mockup that will be filled in later.
A webpage may be inspiring, but very few people look to get jobs that way.
If that (arkcityhasjobs.com) is the effort, then that may be one of the problems in getting the jobs filled. It looks like a scam.
There are ten thousand webpages that look like that and when you contact their link, they try to sell you imitation chinese drugs.
The first tier is advertising (in the newspapers) specific jobs in nearby towns like Stillwater, Enid, Ponca City and Wichita. Include specific requirements, duties, benefits and wage range. People don't respond to ads that are vague or insincere. Make sure they are listed with employment agencies, both private and state, in OK and KS.
For highly skilled jobs, the employer may have to connect with a headhunter and pay fees. That is what is done in the larger cities and is considered normal for highly compensated employees.
Second tier is national job services webpages like yahoo or monster. I see there is a link on the CVB to monster, but I don't see any listings of any Ark City jobs on monster.
Because there are so many scams around, hardly anyone responds to "teasers" ie.: "Come see Billy for a Great Job in Newspapering!, Call today!". They just don't work.
Try: http://hotjobs.yahoo.com
/jobs--Arkansas_City-KS/
No recent jobs listed.
Third tier is to work with the local colleges, ie. Cowley, NOC, ULC, OSU to place students and train employees.
You won't get employees from superficial efforts. Hiring is a serious job and if the pitch doesn't look right, people won't respond.
Nobody takes a job because they might get 3 months of waste pickup and water utilities for free.
People take jobs because they would be stable, could grow, learn, etc and make the same or better wages as what they could in other places.
They look carefully at the pitch for any sign of flakiness. Maybe go to monster, plug in "arkansas City", "ks" and 40 miles and check out keywords "robert half" or "samcorp" for really good examples of job postings. They are both headhunters, but it is the sort of format you would need.
You can't just open a blind webpage and expect anything. You have to be where the jobseekers see you.
If Workforce at Strother Field doesn't have a webpage, they should.
We experienced the same thing you are describing. Nothing on Monster or other major jobsites, nothing under state listings and not much in the paper.
[we read the paper online for a year before we moved here. Thats a good way to get a feel for a community]
It would have helped tremendously if there had been a local job agency linked to the paper [like the local real estate agencies do]
Rubbermaid was advertising jobs on CABLE this past summer. They have to be hard up for employees.
Has anyone thought to ask these employers? It's easy to say it's all BS (that appears to be what you are best at). Forget the city. The employers are responsible for advertising their positions.
OK OK, you gotta blame someone.
Uh, not really blaming anyone, just pointing out to anyone interested that if they want to attract people to the area, than the info needs to be out there.
None of the apartments were listed on apartment finders [which is usually linked to most papers]
None of the local jobs were even interested in talking to someone out of state. Never mind that we were looking to move here.
We had better luck in Winfield and Wichita in that area.
Uh, not really blaming anyone, just pointing out to anyone interested that if they want to attract people to the area, than the info needs to be out there.
None of the apartments were listed on apartment finders [which is usually linked to most papers]
None of the local jobs were even interested in talking to someone out of state. Never mind that we were looking to move here.
We had better luck in Winfield and Wichita in that area.
Sorry for the double post.
"On the other hand, any industrial park would generate money, be available for grants, state and federal development funding, etc. and would pay the residents of Ark City through leases and taxes that would reduce everyone's residential property tax."
There are plenty of empty industrial parks all over the country. Don't just assume "that if you build it they will come".
There is absolutely NO guarantee that if you have an industrial park that any of things you mention will happen.
Again, I am NOT against building an industrial park or attracting new industry.
I AM against thinking that there is only one tried and true way to boost the economy.
Read this article on how successful hike and bike trails HAVE helped local economies.
http://www.imba.com/resources/
science/econsoc_benefits.html
There is absolutely no reason why you could not create a beautiful trail along the river.
And here is an article about empty industrial parks in Kentucky.
http://press.ky.gov/
PressClipDetail.asp?REC=179876
Again, I am sure that one COULD submit articles about how industrial parks have helped communities, too.
My point in that article is not to state a position about being against an industrial park but to merely point out that it is not as sure of an investment as stated.
In reality, there is little comparison between an industrial park and a hike and bike trail as they have totally different objectives. Unfortunately, as this seems to be an either/or debate there is little one can do but compare the two.
I like to see facts not speculation so if you have some type of project plan or study with a budget on these two projects then please share. I would be happy to do the research myself if you point me in the right direction. I looked at some commission stuff on the city website there wasn't any info.
No, not at all. The CVB looks like they're trying, and there is no reason that they can't help, and be effective. One of the companies they could enlist to help is the newspaper. They know how to effectively advertise jobs.
Also, job recruitment has changed very considerably over the past few years, too.
In the current world there are drug tests, second callbacks, signing bonuses, the whole catalog of flextime and benefits, etc which make a job application seem more like a marriage than a job. It's competitive.
My guess is that if the cable ad didn't get results then probably the local market was sufficiently informed about the job. You know, it does happen. Advertising is effective and if all of the outlets are covered and no results, then the local market may be tapped out. At that point, farm another area. Fish another lake.
There is nobody being blamed here, in fact one of the hardest jobs in industry is HR recruitment. It's not easy at all.
The difficulty is not just in Ark City, but is everywhere. I suspect that Ark City has most of the artillery to make it happen, but it just needs to be loaded and fired again.
Don't be afraid to go across the border. It is closer than Winfield. Oklahoma has a distribution of technology centers that train specifically for industry. In fact, I know of one small town's technology center that has a full sized fully working oil drilling rig to train students on. It is an oilpatch town.
Ark City doesn't have oil, but does have blowmolding, airplane jet engines, meat packing, wood manufacturing, etc.
Strother Field used to have a Cowley program to train students as aircraft mechanics to pipeline them directly into GE and many of the Wichita factories.
Cowley College currently has a mechatronics program that trains them to work on many of the very sophisticated electronic and mechanical thingies at the local factories. This should be fodder for the factories.
Important though, to know that all jobs in Ark City won't be filled by people in town.
Hence the hispanics at the processing plant, all those people from Seattle, etc.
There really are specialties and people who constantly cruise yahoo and monster for jobs in airplanes, blowmolding and wood product manufacturing. If there are jobs, put them out there! Get them filled.
Make sure that there isn't some person only 50 miles away that could fill the job but hasn't heard of it.
It is fast and cheap to post jobs on Monster or Yahoo Jobs. Nobody should say "give up" until these first steps have been done.
Trust me. There is no black cloud that will prevent someone from moving from a job in Hobbs or Bridgeport to a better job in Arkansas City. It is the fastest and cheapest way to grow Ark City.
If the jobs are not competitive, then they may be........ well, maybe take them off the list and push the ones with a good chance of working.
But it is not enough to say it's been tried some while ago and it won't work.
Towns and associations all across the country help industry fill jobs all the time. Whether it succeeds or not is probably dependent on staying with it until you get it right. The CVB effort is a darned good place to start.
"There is absolutely NO guarantee that if you have an industrial park that any of things you mention will happen."
You're right.
On the other hand, if you don't have an industrial park there IS a guarantee that nobody will be in the industrial park.
Are you suggesting that the city take the responsibility of advertising jobs for private employers?
Has anyone thought to ask these employers? It's easy to say it's all BS (that appears to be what you are best at). Forget the city. The employers are responsible for advertising their positions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ive talked to several business leaders, and have heard various local business leaders speak.
First thing they do is complain about no being able to find employees.
One huge problem is that they cant get anyone who can pass a drug test.
Another is wages.
Another is getting people to want to live here.
When we need someone at The Traveler, it takes months to find a qualified candidate who will come.
Thats just the newsroom of course.
j
"On the other hand, if you don't have an industrial park there IS a guarantee that nobody will be in the industrial park."
The article very clearly states that SPECULATIVE building is not the way to implement an industrial park.
In fact, there were people in the article with the exact same opinion as above with empty industrial parks.
Patricks's approach of using existing city land that could be used for industry is a much more sensible, pragmatic approach.
When/If the city HAS a list of industries that would come here (with a 87%-90% probability) IF there was a in industrial park then - go for it.
Otherwise, one might as well take some city money down to the casino because what is being suggested is a gamble. It might pay off, it might not.
"Are you suggesting that the city take the responsibility of advertising jobs for private employers?"
Well, no,... of course not. There are numerous agencies and groups that are pitching in, Workforce and obviously CVB staff, and there is nothing wrong with that. If employers choose to use the help, then that is their option.
What I am suggesting is that if there are unfilled jobs, and they are real, competitive jobs, then why not do a full court press and see if they can't be filled?
Jobs have changed. A lot of people looking for jobs do it on the internet on one of about 3 job search sites. Local area marketing is obviously not being used. Internet advertising is obviously not being used.
There appears to be a disconnect between the statement that there are good jobs that can't be filled, but it doesn't look like even the most obvious tools are being used.
I don't know what that means, but it could mean one of 3 things.
1. The jobs aren't real or aren't competitive (same thing).
2. Companies are putting in a half hearted effort.
3. People have given up prematurely.
If the jobs aren't real, (AKA BS), take them off the list and no worries, mate.
But if it is another reason, then why not do a push and see which jobs can be filled? It will help Ark City grow.
"Patricks's approach of using existing city land that could be used for industry is a much more sensible, pragmatic approach."
Absolutely!
First that, then the industrial park. But in either case, there MUST be a plan for its use and marketing.
Either approach involves a definite sea change from what the city has done before. I don't think anyone would suggest buying new land to speculate on industry without using available land first.
But I think even the most stubborn, die-hard stick in the mud would see that nothing comes from nothing.
Complaining about stagnant growth while not using available resources is just silly.
It needs to change.
By the way, buying land for an industrial park is not a complete loss. The land retains value after you have bought it.
This was how I understood the debate.
The city could not put money into a hike and bike trial because we needed an industrial park.
If the hike and bike trail is a current project on the table than the industrial park must be, too. And seeing how there is not a list of industry willing to relocate then I can only presume that it means it is speculative building.
However, if the hike and bike trail is being scrapped for a project that is years down the road then that doesn't make sense either.
The argument also was that hike and bike trails do not benefit the local economy, which is just untrue. If you do it the right way then there are many ways you could use a trail to benefit the economy such as races both foot and bike.
I ran in a 200 mile relay race in the middle of rural New Hampshire that was absolutely amazing. There were something like 30,000 people in that race so I found it hard to believe that the local community didn't see any economic benefit from that.
Nobody expects 30,000 people when Ark City builds the hike-bike trail. Probably the majority of the people out there will be the city employees mowing it.
Wow! Talk about negative thinking....
No, there wouldn't be 30,000 people on a daily basis or possibly even for a year. That was an example of one race in New Hampshire.
However, that doesn't mean that you CAN'T do races. Even a smaller 200-500 person race will bring in revenue.
Generally, hike and bike trails are dirt so I am not sure how much mowing is involved.
Again, I haven't been able to see the plans for this so don't know all the details.
I don't know if you are the original poster (I was replying to) but I sure hope not.
They have to mow the area anyway, so the mowing thing isn't relevant.
The purpose of a hike and bike trail on the levee is not a hike and bike trail.
The point is opening river access and developing the rivers we have.
THAT is economic development.
jj
Would it help any on the hike bike trail if you knew the city had to do the mowing and maintenance on it already?
That part won't change. It will be used instead of just maintained.
Does anyone else see any opportunities in this? Or are we just looking for reasons not to have a hike/bike trail?
I'd like to say it is the people's decision, but I'm not sure it works that way anymore. I'd still like to hear what people think.
Patrick McDonald
It's not about mowing. The question is about use. There is a good reference on use by looking at the jogging track out by the bypass. A few people use it, that's for sure, but few, nevertheless.
If there were 200 to 500 person races, they could have already happened, but there doesn't seem to be much demand in the area for that. That's not negativity, just reality.
What economic value comes in from the jogging trail? I might be wrong, but I think it cost something like a quarter million dollars.
It might be beneficial to take a closer look at what else could be done with the Ark City side of the hike-bike money before just blindly sinking it into a commitment.
There seems to be a sense of progress in the air, and whether the progress is the hike-bike, industrial park or something else, it is a sure thing that Ark City should put a magnifying glass on the use of the money to make sure they get it right.
I think in 5 years people will look back on THIS YEAR and say "that's when the turnaround started".
Some great posts .. comments on one below.
>>>>It's not about mowing. The question is about use. There is a good reference on use by looking at the jogging track out by the bypass. A few people use it, that's for sure, but few, nevertheless. >>>
Thats like comparing a bmw to a volkswagon. Tracks are boring to start with, and its not even in a nice location.
I walk all the time and never go there for that reason.
>>>>>If there were 200 to 500 person races, they could have already happened, but there doesn't seem to be much demand in the area for that. That's not negativity, just reality. >>>
Again, its a matter of quality. A boring track or a walk on the river ? even non-walkers might get started.
Also you have to look at what else is involved.
It isnt just a trail
It is opening river access which could be huge...
>>>What economic value comes in from the jogging trail? I might be wrong, but I think it cost something like a quarter million dollars. >>>
A trail on the river opens all kinds of possibilities for economic development .. as well as making it a place people might come from say Dexter, Ponca, Blackwell, and they would spend money other places.
I think its more than a quarter million, and the city already has the money ...
>>>
It might be beneficial to take a closer look at what else could be done with the Ark City side of the hike-bike money before just blindly sinking it into a commitment.
>>>
This has been in the works for years. the city has already spent several thousand on it.
Plans are drawn, studies are done .
To quit now would waste well over 10.000
<<<
There seems to be a sense of progress in the air, and whether the progress is the hike-bike, industrial park or something else, it is a sure thing that Ark City should put a magnifying glass on the use of the money to make sure they get it right.
>>>
I agree with that
>>>>I think in 5 years people will look back on THIS YEAR and say "that's when the turnaround started". >>>
I think so to, and debate is good.
that's how we figure out where to go and how to get there :)
"To quit now would waste well over 10,000"
Can't just say "in for a penny in for a dollar" for not evaluating the best uses of city money.
To get it wrong would waste the whole amount, not just $10 grand.
To get it wrong would waste the whole amount, not just $10 grand.
I agree.
But this has been studied to death for at least five years.
My point was just that a lot has already been spent.
Its not something new that is being jumped into by any stretch.
In my opinion, the talk about jumping out is blindly jumping without study or thought.
I think ill do a new post on this in a bit. Check back :)
j
"I think its more than a quarter million, and the city already has the money ..."
I wasn't talking about the new hike-bike. I was referring to the jogging trail. The city sank $250,000.00 into it and what did they get?
If I remember then, there was big public demand for it then too. Where are those people now? They're sure not using the trail.
Was it a waste of money? Ark City is at a similar decision point again. If I understand Patrick correctly, this money is the last of the Creekstone PILOT money. Once this is gone, that's it.
Better get it right. It's too much money to waste and it can be put to other uses. It'll be interesting to look back in 5 years on a hike-bike trail, just as we do now on the jogging trail. Maybe it will look different, .. dunno.
I agree with JJ on the comparison of the track vs. the trail next to the river.
Besides, its not fun to walk a narrow track when you have to share it with bikers, runners and dog walkers.
A good fishing area would draw another group of regulars.
Groups of moms and retirees that would favor it over playing dodge car every time they want to take a walk.
camp sites, picnic areas, a rentable pavillion for groups...
As far as access to the nature center...I can't walk to it.
Kaw recreation, I don't live in OK.
Island Park's nature trail....its in Winfield and I refuse to go to Winfield.
We moved here because we love this place. I'd rather spend my money here,and 'play' here than go elsewhere.
As far as economic growth and jobs...
The attitude of 'why would people want to come to Ark City?' needs to change.
The city doesn't take to outsiders very well who want to relocate here.
Some of the longtimers need to actually believe that Ark City DOES have something to offer or else you are just going to keep living up to the backwards reputation that we heard so much about when we first got here.
You do have a sense of community here and do care about the kids. That what finally drew us to Ark City.
The number of times the kids made the front page in the year before we moved here proved the sense of community.
Just thoughts from an outsider looking in..
"If there were 200 to 500 person races, they could have already happened, but there doesn't seem to be much demand in the area for that. That's not negativity, just reality."
You can say the exact same thing about an industrial park. If there was demand we would have one already.
"You can say the exact same thing about an industrial park. If there was demand we would have one already."
One would think, duh....
Where has Ark City been?
One poster said that if previous Commissioners failed to make critical decisions that we shouldn't blame the current Commissioners.
I agree wholeheartedly if they can get it fixed. Otherwise, it's all the same thing.
"Kaw recreation, I don't live in OK."
I'm dying to know:
Have you ever been there?
(actually on the "beach", fishing areas, trails, etc?)
I don't think we need to worry about the hike bike trail. It seems rather progressive. The new city commissioners are certainly against it already. And if that is true nothing we say or do is going to change it. It won't matter how many people want it or what good it will be for the city. It's probably a done deal already. They couldn't see and wouldn't take an opportunity if it were handed to them.
If what the previous poster stated is true than that is a shame.
Kaw recreation.....
Yes we have been there.
Its a wonderful place and we do go there on occasion but we would prefer to stay and 'play' in Ark city and not have to travel all over the place.
The hike/bike trail next to the river would make things more convenient.
It may not be the same but would offer more choices of things to do here and open up river access to more people.
Not everyone on the city commission is against progress. They just just get outvoted.
Here is the point I was trying to make:
You have Kaw Lake, Winfield's Island Park, Cowley County Fish and rec area, Ark City's ?? [many parks, a jogging track??]
How about Ark City's Riverfront Park?
Actually I got it, and it's a really good point. Maybe that's what it can be.
But for another reason, I wondered if you have actually been to Kaw Lake.
I'm fascinated that in the past I've asked the Burford remodeling people about the Poncan, the airport people about the airport, the parks people about the parks, the development people about development, etc. and there doesn't seem to be much knowledge, exposure or interest in what our Oklahoma neighbors are doing.
It seems like an Ark City thing. PC is about 25 miles away and many folks shop there, but it seems like few people go any deeper than that. Nobody has been to the museum, the recreational parks, etc., The issue is not about loyalties, it is a question about exposure to the area.
It reminds me of something written in the 60's by Allen Ginsburg about the Wichita Vortex where there is a big wind wall (like a tornado wall) that surrounds the Wichita area and nothing outside the wall ever goes in and nothing comes out. Everything of importance occurs within the inside of the vortex wall. Everything outside is ignored.
Doesn't mean anything, just an observation.
I have a question about the river trail. Will the levee keep the area from flooding now? If so you might consider a river walk like San Antonio, only on a smaller scale to begin with.
It would give you limitless possiblities for retail, such as restruants, fishing equipment rentals, barge rides on the river and even dinner cruises on the river, as it catches on and grows other retail outlets could open , there are endless opportunities awaiting the people wanting to live a dream.
Just a thought to toss out to you folks.
1:13 poster,
I see what you are saying and would have to agree with your observation.
Ponca likes to showcase its historical sites and I could see Ark City doing the same thing. The Old AC building could be turned into a historical museum.
I got a grand tour and met with the Poncan theatre group and was very impressed with what they did and how. I asked if they would meet with the Buford folks and they would've been happy to. Couldn't convince the Buford folks to do it.
I have noticed that people who have lived elsewhere and try to share what they have observed get basically shut out.
I'm out of time for the moment but would love to continue discussing this.
1:28 poster..
Yes! Yes! Theres just something about a river....:}
just sign me,
outsider looking in
onestone said...
I have a question about the river trail. Will the levee keep the area from flooding now? If so you might consider a river walk like San Antonio, only on a smaller scale to begin with.
It would give you limitless possiblities for retail, such as restruants, fishing equipment rentals, barge rides on the river and even dinner cruises on the river, as it catches on and grows other retail outlets could open , there are endless opportunities awaiting the people wanting to live a dream.
*********************************
Yes, the levee will protect up to a "500 year flood". All of that area has been removed from the flood zone.
And yes, I agree completely. The opportunities are great. The city now owns much of the land along the inside of the levee and along the proposed trail. It could be given away (or sold very cheaply) to people that would take advantage of those opportunities just like we do with land now (example: the meat market going in on S Summit).
Someone once told me that we take advantage of each opportunity that comes along. I must be impatient because I would much rather create more opportunities to make things happen.
Patrick McDonald
"I don't think anyone would suggest buying new land to speculate on industry without using available land first."
Really, because I pretty sure that this was posted by a commissioner.
"So, maybe the solution is to buy an industrial park with the hike-bike money instead of spending it on a one-way trail to nowhere."
wouldn't it be cool to have a riverfront restaurant?
Patrick, if the trail is going to be put in , it must be nice. A paved trail, nice lighting, benches to watch the river go by.
Someone could start out as a street vendor selling hotdogs. Every place has to have a start and a dream to make each step a reality.
There are some good ideas coming in, finally!!!
Outsider, I agree with you on a whole lot of matters. I think you have a very fresh view. A much needed change. Positive.
Thanks!!!
The trail will be paved. That is part of the grant. It will have to be handicapped accessible. I'm not sure what other amenities are required. I believe benches are also required, though I don't remember details. I don't recall anything in the grant about lighting, but that might be in there also. There are always details that come up afterwards but they are usually minor, either inexpensive or just manpower.
We need to get some vendors lined up to show what can be done. A hot dog vendor, maybe a bait store, canoe rentals, what else? Anyone out there have any ideas and want to start a business?
Patrick McDonald
Does that mean you want to help people start businesses?
I've a few ideas.
:)
I for one have lived here all my life and getting ready to retire after nearly 30 years. I have plans for a couple of ideas and plan to start a small business. But I am having doubts about investing my life savings in Ark City. I am not looking for tax incentives or free money or land, just a positive attitude from my elected leaders, at least three of them. I for one am very reluctant because of the unknown and misdirection from the curret city commission. I will also let you in on a secret that some of my plans do include ideas with the hike bike trail as well as downtown. This is not an off the cuff sort of thing, I have had these plans for a couple of years. The hike bike trail would enhance my plans. I will be standing by for a little while to see what you do!
I for one have lived here all my life and getting ready to retire after nearly 30 years. I have plans for a couple of ideas and plan to start a small business. But I am having doubts about investing my life savings in Ark City. I am not looking for tax incentives or free money or land, just a positive attitude from my elected leaders, at least three of them. I for one am very reluctant because of the unknown and misdirection from the curret city commission. I will also let you in on a secret that some of my plans do include ideas with the hike bike trail as well as downtown. This is not an off the cuff sort of thing, I have had these plans for a couple of years. The hike bike trail would enhance my plans. I will be standing by for a little while to see what you do!
I've spent the last 5 years helping to generate new businesses. I do it on a very small scale, but they do grow.
If I can be of any help getting someone started I'd be glad to do what I can!
Patrick McDonald
Ok Patrick, I'll bite.
In all honesty, if I had to pick one thing to focus on, this hike/bike trail would be it.
I do have questions though before I commit to jumping in with both feet.
Is this something that a group of volunteers could accomplish?
Would the city even consider matching grant money with private donations and manpower,resources, etc.
[I am thinking along the lines of how that playground at Island Park was built by volunteers]
I know that commissioners can't lead citizen groups, but could a commissioner speak to a group about the legalities, regulations, etc?
And the big question is if we got a citizens group together and came up with plans/proposals/commitments, etc. what would happen if it still got voted down?
Could it still be feasible?
What can we citizens do to make it happen?
I'm not sure on the answers for these yet, but am looking into it. I don't know what restrictions the grant may have on it, that is the real concern. The plan is pretty much set if I understand correctly. It had to be approved and is the basis for the grant. Though I am sure some corrections and changes are possible.
I'll get more details out as quickly as I can. Might take a few days.
Patrick McDonald
This is not an off the cuff sort of thing, I have had these plans for a couple of years. The hike bike trail would enhance my plans. I will be standing by for a little while to see what you do!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
i would be interested in hearing your plans.
Ark City already has an industrial park with the infrastructure mostly in place. It is called Goff Industrial Park. I have a thought, why don’t we work together with Ark City Industries to try and fill it up?
Here are some of the answers I was trying to get about volunteer help and donations towards the hike/bike trail. I will continue to seek more information:
Typically state and federal grants such as this one require the use of qualified engineers to perform the design and oversight of the construction process, including the bidding of the project. Being on the levee, any construction projects would have to have the design approved by the Corp. of engineers, which we will be required to receive when the design work is done.
Some smaller grants, such as the materials grant for Veteran’s lake, can be done in house without engineering design, formal bidding, etc. A lot depends upon the granting agency. Anything that is not bid out could involve volunteer labor, but would probably not be available for grant reimbursement. There may be side projects that could be done with volunteer labor. Private donations could be used to assist in the matching funds provided by the City.
The city will review the grant requirements, but so far it seems to fall into the qualified bidder/design category due to the funding agency and its size and complexity.
Patrick McDonald
Hi, Everyone
Just a clarification on the Burford and the Poncan. The Poncan is one of many historic theatres throughout the state that I have visited...in fact, I have been through the Poncan twice...once with the Poncan architect that is working with the Burford. Just so you don't get the wrong idea, people on the Burford committee went to local architects first, but they did not feel this was a project for them. You may be pleased to know that a group from Ponca is coming to Ark City to study our main street update and is also going to tour the Burford. Which brings to mind that you are all welcome to tour the Burford. We have already had approx 2,000 people through the facility. If you have a question, please call me at 442-5895.
PS: I am not afraid to sign my name. Why doesn't everyone here do that? It would be easier to answer your questions and address your concerns.
Oops...I have something to learn about blogging. The comment about the Burford is from Ellen Snell. As I said, you can call me at 442-5895 with any questions.
My question was posed early in the project and it was indicated that there had been no contact with the Poncan. Obviously that has changed and for the better.
The architect for the Poncan on board? Good choice.
Post a Comment