Are you tired of debating the hospital yet?
I did get a phone message yesterday from an anonymous person who said she was tired of it already. She said she thought there must be some other news and was going to vote against the sales tax because we put to much about the hospital in the paper.
I feel like there are still things we need to report on.
Not a lot of people showed up for the hospital meeting yesterday. But it was a hospital auxiliary meeting, so you wouldn't expect many people to show up for that in the middle of the morning.
More meetings are coming that are more conducive to public participation.
You need to go to these meetings.
Clayton Pappan makes a good case. Believe it or not, they have actually studied things like location, costs, population trends and needs, and that sort of thing. They really didn't just wake up one day and say "hey lets build a hospital two miles north of town."
I am working on getting more of that stuff on our website. The hospital people said they'd give me the power point to post on here. It has a lot, but it doesn't have everything. We may be able to do some videos too, or other recordings.
There was a little debate going on with the blog about naysayers and such. There are some legitimate questions, and they need answering. There are also people who just object and keep coming up with questions that are just objections.
It doesn't matter how many times you answer a naysayers questions, he or she will still refuse to understand, because they are only interested in tearing things down, not in actually understanding.
I was at a meeting the other night - not hospital related - and this guy was asking why something had happened. The thing was explained twice, but he kept saying "I just don't understand..." They tried explaining it again, but ... he "just couldn't understand."
People need to realize that after awhile, if all you do is complain and criticize, that everyone else will stop taking you seriously. You will be left behind.
There are legitimate questions. No one objects to that. The naysayer always says that if anyone asks a question they get called a naysayer. That just isn't true. Naysayers don't really ask questions. They make accusations and spread rumors and put a question mark on the end of it. I think that's the real difference.
There is real and legitimate information out there.
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43 comments:
I find it interesting that when the big box was being discussed, economic development was ignored by some of the city commission.
Now that they are talking hospital, the spin is economic development, not health care.
I must have missed something.
Jean Snell
I do think that this governing body has moved up the learning curve about what are the critical elements of decision making. My thought about the Eco Devo proposal was that it was a grad level decision being pressed upon an undergrad council.
Without offering an opinion on the merit of the outcome, I thought the way the conversation on that topic was handled reflected that the whole body was still trying reading the job description.
The role is served well through neither populism nor mandates. Even when a majority voice emerges in local government, the council has to learn that the minority voice needs to be considered. Only in partisan politics (which our local offices are not) do the majority feel comfortable muting the voices of the minority party.
I would say that the council's dialog reflects a greater awareness that the topic of discussion has a complexity of impacts. Better health care is the objective (at least it was during my time in the hot seat) however, progressive health care is essential to an Economic Profile, it's an appeal to industrial prospects and it is a feeder to technological enterprise.
Right under first rate education system in a community, people list the quality of health care as a quality of life issue which influences their choice of relocation.
Now, let’s just hope they don't use the hospital to pimp the people or use eco devo to pimp the hospital. Just doing something well nets the results as opposed to trying to bait the desired results without doing a first rate job.
The good news that people are so busy talking about the hospital they don't even realize how easily they got over their heartburn about the school bond election.
Oops!
"how easily they got over their heartburn about the school bond election."
I see where you are going, Charles, when you frame things in pop culture project management language. It is not really up to the City Commission to know and keep up with the "grad level decision"s that have to be done. They are citizen leaders and should be doing "big picture" stuff. What do they know? They're plumbers, internet techs and slumlords.
It IS the job of the City Manager to know these "grad level" things and to have the skills and credentials to see them through. It IS the job to have the CM put together economic development and growth plans. Where are they?
The thing that seems improper about all of these are the public meetings. They are there for a purpose, to determine the will of the public and make changes based on this input.
It should not be just a box to check (although it is a "box" in every civil work; you have to have public meetings before engineering projects can be completed).
The public meetings say to the public that their input is part of the process, where in fact, it is not.
Once again, there has been a meeting where the public opinion was asked and then the opinion was ignored and the public was "informed" of how it will be.
It is no wonder people are upset. The reason the outrage stopped on the school is that it is over. It doesn't matter now.
It would be best to not have public meetings, or to start the meeting with "you can talk all you want tonight, but we won't listen and you won't change anything".
It would be a lot more honest.
Naysayer is just like any other non-descriptive invective. Nearly useless.
JJ: try this:
Because it is eventually impossible to say in an argument which one is a "naysayer", why not pull out your obvious journalistic and literary sagaciousness and forever avoid the word "naysayer".
Spend your words describing why the person's logic or opinion is not proper or productive. It will be a lot easier to understand your vision than to simply call them naysayers. It is more work though.
It does inspire discourse.
I think there are varying opinions. Public meetings are for the sharing of information. In some cases it is the sharing of facts, in others the sharing of feelings, and in yet another the sharing of opinions.
Of the 3 I prefer to hear the facts, though I've come to learn that most people aren't interested in the facts. I also care to hear public sentiment, but have to weigh sentiment against future results.
If people make the efforts to learn the facts then they can make an informed decision. How much sentiment value is there if the facts are not brought out, or even worse if the facts are ignored? Different perspectives are great, but there has to be evidence, research, or personal experience to give it weight.
Both sides of every issue need to be represented. There are always pros and cons. But to persuade someone of your side you need to have proof or references or some form or research to demonstrate otherwise it is only an opinion with nothing to support it.
Go to the meetings. Get the information. Ask for copies. Make an informed decision and have the material to back it up.
If I can provide any information I'd be glad to do my best.
Patrick McDonald
I think it is inappropriate to be calling commissioners pimps and ho's.
There will always be people against every project in every town but the sad thing is that so many are so mean spirited. We all need to ask questions, we all need to weigh the information. If you still disagree with the facts that is not the problem. Dispute the facts and prove your side of the point but look at all the facts.
Some people on this board and the ones most of us don't quite understand are the ones just against it because they are just against everything and will not listen to any facts. They are afraid that someone or some project may be successful.
The meetings have shown a need for the hospital and the reasons for the location. Those decisions were reached not by a group of just doctors but of people in a variety of other occupations as well.
Those people took time off of their jobs and traveled to visit sites, talk with people and now come to discuss their findings at community meetings. Again, many are taking time off of work and are willing to explain why the reached their decisions. We need to listen and then decide.
No one seems to dispute the fact that we need to do something to the hospital but the argument seems to be the location. Yet, the people that have selected the location did so after much thought.
We can not all be involved in every project this town may see in the future. I can not be a part of every committee that investigates ideas and plans for the future. I do not know anyone that can be but I can listen to those that have investigated and I can make my decions based on that.
It is now our job to decide if we need a new hospital not to discuss salaries of nurses or the value of a doctor. What is the value of this community?
What can a hospital bring to not only the town but to our own future. When I am old who will be able to take me to appointments in Wichita? If I am in a horrible car wreck or home accident, will this hospital only fix me up and hope I survive the trip north or south or will there be a surgeon to help me and keep me close to home. If I have a heart attack or stroke who and where will I be able to find the fast help I need.
Two minutes north or 50 miles.
The choice is really ours based on facts. This board shows lots of hostilities based on many issues from Lowe's to schools to our fear of the future.
Ask questions but then evaluate it on what you want for your future...not how your vote "will show" someone that you don't care for. This is important and not time for personal vendettss.
Spend your words describing why the person's logic or opinion is not proper or productive. It will be a lot easier to understand your vision than to simply call them naysayers. It is more work though.
>>>>>
Ive pointed out faulty logic, and errors, of the people who insist on being negative no matter what the facts (naysaying) ... and it does no good.
Facts or logic doesnt matter to people who are intent on being negative and tearing things and people down.
If you throw a stick into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one who got hit. ...
that's right. no personal vendetta's. I wish Jean would go work at lowe's if he loves it so much
I don't understand the continual whining about Lowe's. It's over. Their trucks come to town several times a day. A prominent downtown just had new Lowe's windows installed. We can't have one here so we go to where we can.
But the issue is over. It won't be built here. We won't do business here. Let's move on to what we are allowed to do here. If anything is anymore.
Amen to that on the lowe's!
No personal attacks or vendettas. Let's prove this town is better than that.
Consider the real issuss and facts and vote. What do you want for your future health care? How will the issue affect you if it is voted in and if is turned down. What will be in your best interests? We decide on this one and not the commission.
Are you willing to make the trip to towns much further away for care that could be delivered here? I believe we have a chance to be a regional medical center or think that is what was said at the commission meeting. Do we want to say no to another opportunity. This decision is in our hands and the choice is ours.
Discussion is good but we have to check the facts. The fact that we lost Lowe's does make many people bitter but if we had gotten one some would have been equally upset. Most peoplet were just angry they had no say. Others are upset because it was turned away by a few based on personal vendettas.
This time we speak with a vote and we must decide what we want for the future and how it will truly affect us and those we love.
I still get mad every time I have to drive to Lowe's in Ponca City to do business. I know I'm not the only one. The idiotic mistake to ignore our petition still weighs on a LOT of people's minds.
I also know I'm not the only one who refuses to spend money at Midwest Electric or Bryant's Hardware as well.
but this has nothing to do with Lowe's or that issue...this is about a hospital and our health care. We can try to revisit Lowe's with another commission another day.
Now we have to decide what is in the best interest of our future with or without a hospital.
Over and over again the posters seem to see those in certain positions as the problem or as the ones who should resolve all the problems.
In this case the mayor, city manager and commission. On the national scene the president, congress and those who hope to be!
Let me suggest they only inherit the rolls at this period in time.
It so easy to put a name and face on things we don't like or under- stand.
The place we are failing as a society both locally and nationally is in countering trends.
You can't put a face or name on trends. They often take years and are so gradual they can only get attention when they have a negative effect/impact.
If you look at the old downtown. When did the deterioration start?
If you read Fred Tuppers obituary Strother Field at its peak employed around 8,000 people. At what point did this trend end?
Over and over if you look at the area you can see trends -
-Aging population
-Aging infrastructure
-Inability to retain the youth
-A larger percent who commute
to work
-A larger percentage of temporary
agencies and jobs.
-A larger percentage of foriegn
workers in the community.
-Local businesses that mature and
are absorbed by larger business
-A lack of new business/industry
and/or industries.
-Teenage pregnancy
-Underage drinking
-Gangs on wannabes
It is imperative that we recognize these and other trends so that we can work on solutions to counter their negative effects.
It is also important to not interfere to the extent that has a negative impact.
Countering the negative effect of trends is bigger than one person or position!
A new box (new hospital) does not necessarily mean that the contents of the box will be new also. A new building outside of town does not guarantee us quality services. Why are so many people traveling outside of Ark City for Medical care? Theere are and could be a multitude of answers but the single answer that comes to mind is they are not getting the quality care or expertise that they require. How many times has someone went to this hospital and been given a half hearted treatment for there illness. A new shiny hospital will not clean up the poor quality treatment that we receive from our medical community.
Could it be we are referred there because the docs here don't have the equipment or facilities they need to treat. Could it be that without a new facility we will HAVE to go there for even more things. Could it be that future new docs will go somewhere else because we will be too far behind.
Could it be that turning this down will make things even worse? Still think we have to go beyond what has happened to what could happen and that it would be really good...certainly not going to go that direction without some changes.
"being negative no matter what the facts (naysaying)"
As the discussions develop, it is hard to keep the naysayers apart. Eventually both sides are naysayers.
Try it. Write for 3 months without using naysayer. You will be much more descriptive and better understood.
Still think we have to go beyond what has happened to what could happen and that it would be really good...certainly not going to go that direction without some changes.
>>>
Thats a great post.
We do need to think in a more forward way. Not just what is wrong, but how do we fix it, and what is "my" place in fixing it.
Do we want to move forward, or do we want to wallow in the present and past forever?
If you are blaming Zach Bryant for not getting a Lowe's, then you are not well informed. Zach was against Lowe's, but did not and does not have the power to stop Lowe's from coming. He did not want it to come for free.
So, go ahead and boycott Byrant's, that is your right and your loss.
I Hear that if this new hospital fails to be built, then the only PLAN \"B\" is...drive our butts to Winfield Hospital, after the KDHE suspends the license of the AC hospital. Come on people...get behind the Hospital board and support their decision. Quit bellyaching about the location and be thankful the land was DONATED in the first place. Show some appreciation to the Pattersons and quit disrespecting their gift.
As for the studies, contact Clayton Pappan. There have been many, with one of the most recent being in conjunction with a 20 year \"future\" corridor study. But guess what? Ark City did not have to pay for these studies, the AC Docs paid for them when they were investing in a new hospital. Don\'t you think the Docs wanted it to be successful too? Many have asked why the Docs will not pay this time around too? STARK laws make it illegal for DR\'s to own hospitals now. Even the ones in Wichita, that were Grand-fathered under the new laws, are now being investigated by the Attorney General. That being said, would you invest your money into a home mortage but not own the house? Why would we expect the Doctors of AC do the same, yet get none of the profits. That would be unfair to ask of them. Many people think the local physicians are RICH, RICH, RICH...well guess what? They may be, but it is their money not the Cities, and not ours.
One more thing. Many people thought the movie theatre was a bad idea when it was built at Strother, but many people keep coming to it. It has been a successful operation, and I do realize there is no such thing as a Movie Emergency, but come on, allow change to happen and you might just get to grow some.
again with that for FREE stuff. pull your heads out. in no way did lowe's get off FREE. they would have paid their taxes in full. the developer would have collected those taxes to create the rest of the shopping center.
i don't mind the misinformation or the lies nearly as much as i hate people that don't even bother gathering the facts.
i don't even mind that you continue to lie and spread the misinformation, but i can't believe people will still make it a point to ignore the facts.
that's the problem with ark city. you don't want to know the truth. what your ignorant neighbor tells you is gospel. when someone comes to you with the truth you don't want to hear it.
start looking to the future and ask people that know. not the guy at the end of the block, or the people in the next booth. ask the people that are working on it.
now that i've said it i'll cool off because there is no way in ark city that this will happen. we will make every effort to close off any possibilities to enjoy the lies and misinformation we can spread.
What can we do to make the future better? We have to start somewhere to change the miscues of the past and plan for tomorrow. We have to start by speaking together in civil terms and working to make a difference. Start with yourself and that will be a beginning.
-A larger percentage of foriegn
workers in the community- Well, you have Creekstone to thank for that, and if I remember correctly the city was ALL for them coming to town along with ALL the local jobs they would provide... well, who moved to town and took those jobs? see the above quoted statement. and while the rest of our us have our water bill continuely go up, Creekstone just gets their discount extended, can't be making too much money off of them yet it doesn't seem. As for quality care at the hospital, every time we have gone to ER we couldn't even get a doctor in this town to see us, only interns from Wichita that are working see you, and yet they are alone and interning under NO ONE, and I point that out because I have seen MANY instances where the intern did not do a good job or proper diagnosis-just wondering in the new hosptial if that would change? of course, you at least will be able to get a burger or hotel out there while you wait, yeah right
If you have seen many instances of poor treatment by the intern that is impressive. You are still here to tell about it and you went back for more.
A burger at Via Christi meant I had to have security watch me at 7 p.m. since the neighborhood is not safe. A burger at Gallachia was not within walking distance and neither is a hotel and that is the same for the Kansas Spine hospital..yeah had relatives there too.
Reality is that if you go to the ER and you need to be admitted they call the LOCAL doc on call. The initial doc who is sometimes from Wichita on the weekends is seldom an intern...you assumed wrong. Imagine that.
Again, I repeat the question posted earlier what are YOU going to do to help make things better. No change will not bring in more docs, no change will not help the level of care and doing nothing means that in a few years we may have nothing here for true healthcare. What are you going to do to make it better? You can badmouth all you want the care you have received but at least there was care to be received.
Spouting off your mouth without any knowledge of the hospital or it's staff. Great. Thanks for all the support.
Maybe the folks at General Electric should use old lousy tools to build jet engines. Then lets load up the entire city on some planes with these engines to China and see which ones make it.
GOOD TOOLS = GOOD WORK
Dang it pull your heads out of your butts!!
Zach Bryant is my HERO! And he is cute too!
Docs are my hero. They may not all be cute but some are and they all rock
Anonymous said...
Spouting off your mouth without any knowledge of the hospital or it's staff. Great. Thanks for all the support.
Maybe the folks at General Electric should use old lousy tools to build jet engines. Then lets load up the entire city on some planes with these engines to China and see which ones make it.
GOOD TOOLS = GOOD WORK
Dang it pull your heads out of your butts!!
You gotta think there are a lot of airplanes still in the air built with those old tools and you have more than likely been on one in the last two years!!!
It's not the tool it's the person behind the tool and the expertise and knowledge of how to use them.
Same with the hospital if the doctor does not have the knowledge to recognize what is wrong all the new in any hospital won't do anyone any good.
I still say the reason most people end up at St.Francis or Galacia or the spine facilities is because of referrals, because most of the time either the wrong treatment was given here or they could not figure it out and needed someone more quilified to figure it out.
That happened now and will happen then, I personally still say I want the best chance to live, so band-aid me up and get me the out of here.
Last thought if you build a new hospital and put new equipment in it say in Feb,2009 , I think if you buy it now to have it then you are still behind technology wise. Just like the computer you buy for your kids in the fall are old technology by the spring same with the hospital and its staff unless we spend more to retrain them.
When have we everseen a specialized traveling nurse here for our nurses to work eith yo get caught up on some of the latest procedures on anything, maybe that is a cost that should be built in the total cost or is it?
I know you guys hate rumors, but...
I heard that the old hospital was to be purchased by the college. Does anyone know what will become of it? Are they going to tear it down? Am I wrong to say that the college would have to remove asbestos and make some repairs, too? (At our expense)
When have we everseen a specialized traveling nurse here for our nurses to work eith yo get caught up on some of the latest procedures on anything,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nurses - and docs too - constantly go to seminars and training sessions. They have to re-certify every now and then.
My wife is a school nurse and she has to go to training at least once a year.
So I think they are fairly well caught up.
On the college taking over the old building, id not heard that one.
I dont think there is a plan at this point for the old building. I think the city and the hospital are open to ideas.
All the doctors are required by law to continue to take education classes at their own expense. When they go to these classes, they pay their expenses and not the city. They are also away from the office at their expense which means they are not getting paid.
I know many think they make too much but how many of us are willing to go to college for four years and then med school for 8 to 12 more at our own expense. The education costs for these people can surpass $300,000 for just tuition and books.
They deserve respect for putting their weekends on hold, their sleep interrrupted just so we can be healthy. Yeah, sometimes they play golf and sometimes they travel. Sometimes I play golf and sometimes I travel but no one gives me grief about it. Do I deserve free time more than they do? Do you?
We may resent that the doctors make more but I do not want the responsibility they have every day. I do want them to have the very best working conditions they can have. I do not want to think that a leaky ceiling or poor equipment would keep me from being patched up or make a difference in the care my injured child or grandchild would get.
What I want for myself is one thing but what I want for my kids and grandkids is far different.
I have to think what if? What if is one thing for me and another for those I love. Keep that in mind as you argue. Patching you up is fine but do you want to look at your injured and very sick child while they load them up on a helicopter to go to Wichita when it might have been handled here.
Have you raced to Wichita behind an ambulance. I have and it just isn't fun. In fact, it is the most desperate feelings in the world.
This is about more than me. It has to be about the future. This board shows many narrow minded views against businesses and people but it sure doesn't find any real solutions except to keep things the same. That is okay for now but I just can't think it will be okay for five years from now and that is what we need to address. What type of health care do you want for your family?
"That happened now and will happen then, I personally still say I want the best chance to live, so band-aid me up and get me the out of here."
Sign your name so they can be sure not to provide service to you in the event of an emergency. Or any reason for that matter.
"That happened now and will happen then, I personally still say I want the best chance to live, so band-aid me up and get me the out of here."
Sign your name so they can be sure not to provide service to you in the event of an emergency. Or any reason for that matter.
I said old lousy tools. Try putting together a jet engine with uncalibrated tooling, out of spec parts and old non-functioning tools. GE employees get a tool allowance, so I know our tools are TOP NOTCH! My point was that the Docs can make better diagonosis with advance equipment. Patients will have a better experience not having to go outside to a semi trailer for a MRI in the middle of winter. You are a hard headed individual. But as the above poster said: "sign your name" so they don't make a mistake and try to save your opinionated little self-centered life.
Dear Jean:
Thanks, but no thanks.
LOL
I love the bLOGS
i just go to the Winfield hospital for care, despite the drive. its all about the care you receive, that is why many go elsewhere. would a new hospital improve the care here? i dont think so. they claim it will attract specialized doctors, but will they have the money for that then when they don't now? i cant see where a new, expensive hospital is going to somehow magically supply the dollars needed to attract nurses and doctors, and lets not forget benefits also along with that. doctors and nurses can make a lot more money in bigger towns, and the benefits provided are also a lot better, that is why they choose to work in them, many people who go to nursing school around here work in Wichita hospitals or specialty clinics for the better pay AND BETTER BENIFITS. A new and expensive hospital is not going to solve these other issues, I want to see the hospital address those also and tell us how they will solve these problem- perhaps if they can address those issues NOW with their employees, they can sway mine and maybe some others votes. it wont do any good to have this new hospital if they continue to do the same things they are now, look at all their ads in the newspaper for help all the time. when you cant retain help, in any business, then it suffers due to lack of training and experience. the city is also suffering from lack of good and experienced help, along with moral issues, and they too seem to be running nonstop employment ads these days. that is why the town is going downhill and looking so bad. you should pay well, provide good benefits, care about your employees well being, in order to have any type of successful enterprise. this is a lot of the problems around here that aren't being addressed or maybe we just need to look at those in charge and how they are running things? employee retainment and moral, along with good or bad service, tells us how well those in charge are doing...
I love how you can make up your own answers. The reason we don't have more and specialized services is that there is no where to put them.
But please, don't believe me or anyone on this board. Do like the smart folks and ask. Call the hospital and ask for a walk through. Let them show you.
Ain't no way that's ever gonna happen because you don't want it to be true. Not wanting it and it not being true are 2 different things. Those of you that aren't afraid of the truth, go look and go to the meetings. Those that are afraid do us all a favor - just leave town.
Doctors are self employed. They pay for their own benefits and they pay for the benefits of those that work at the clinic. Taxpayers do not pay for the benefits and the new hospital has no effect on that.
The hospital pays for the benefits of the nurses and the support staff at the hospital. They are as competitive as any hospital can be when there is such a huge shortage.
As the hospital grows, so will the staff and hence some economic development which is not what the new hospital is realy about. The hospital is about health care and not being classified as Winfield's hospital now is. It has to transfer people after a few days and not treat them for any extended time.
It is true that some things will still have to be done in a larger facility but not as much or not as often. There will be room for two surgeries to happen at the same time. We don't have that ability now and if you are injured and need immediate surgery that is great unless the current room is being used and then you wait. That has happened in our facilty more than you may realize. More space is necessary. A routine surgery in progress and an emergency C section can be a huge problem for all involved.
We can not attract specialists now because the facilities are not here for them to use. The level of pay is going to vary some but the cost of living, the commute time, the community and the people can make a difference. Some doctors just don't want a big city but have to have the facitities to practice their medicine.
If you choose to go to Winfield that is certainly your business. People do get upset with personalities and move. That choice is yours but i agree that if I am injured I would rather have the treatment available here than there.
I would also prefer to have a doctor treat me that I personally know, that I go to church with or that I see at the grocery store. I know they have a personal interest in my welfare. I have also been sent to Wichita and the doctor couldn't remember my name or even what I was there for. Treat me locally.
I quit going to AC Clinic about 7 years ago. They are understaffed, which causes long waits and irritable receptionists. After sitting in the lobby for an hour or more, you have to sit on the doctor's table for another 30 minutes, at least. The last time I was there, my son had a fever and was screaming the whole time (he was still a baby). A nurse came over, gave me a nasty look and slammed the door shut so she wouldn't have to listen to it. When the physician's assistant (you can never get in to see a real doctor) finally came in to see him, she was there a total of 2-4 minutes? In Wichita, or Winfield I spend more time with the doctor (yes, a REAL doctor) than I do in their waiting room. It's worth the drive to me.
which CLINIC did you go to in Winfield or Wichita?
maybe if we had a bigger and better provided for hospital you wouldn't have to go to the CLINIC. there would be more complete service at the HOSPITAL.
Sign your name so they can be sure not to provide service to you in the event of an emergency. Or any reason for that matter.
George W. BUSH
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