This issue gets people stirred up, and that's why politicians use it at times. Both sides also use it during political campaigns to help or hurt candidates.
There are some fundamental issues though.
Pro choice has a nice sound to it. Of course as an adult you want the right to choose what is best for you. Only problem is, at some point, it is another life.
Pro-life also has a nice sound to it. But how much is propaganda?
If you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged with two counts of murder, but if you help her dispose of her unborn baby, you can charge her a couple hundred bucks and say it is a choice.
That is the real issue I think. When does life begin?
Neither side seems willing to deal with that issue, because it would essentially solve the issue.
The scriptures really don't say when life begins. Some point to the verse that says God knew you when you were in your mothers womb. That is poetry. Poetry is meant to convey images, not give detailed instruction. Also, God knows all things, so he knew you at creation, even before that.
Another place talks about the penalty for someone causing a woman to lose her unborn baby. The penalty is not death, which is the normal penalty for killing. Also, at creation, God formed man and then "breathed" life into him and he became a living being. It doesn't say, and that is why it is controversial even in christian circles.
We can go with biblical principles, and that gets into interpretation, but it should be part of the equation. But there is no clear-cut statement you can point to one way or the other.
Here is my solution.
Get the two sides together, and some doctors and scientists and theologians who are hopefully unbiased, or have them from both sides. Stick them in a room with only bread and water and keep them there until they hammer out a deal. That's too easy but it would work. Money is the reason neither side is interested in actually solving the problem.
Solving the problem would entail defining when life begins, defining exceptions, and regulating the industry.
Just from a common sense perspective, there should be some exceptions. Rape being the major one, but, if that crime is reported and you go to the emergency room immediately, that can "fix" the problem before it starts.
Still, it should be an exception. It could be abused, but so can anything else.
But there should be a limit on it. A person 8 months pregnant shouldn't be able to say, "oh yea, i got raped ... "
What if it were totally legal the first trimester. legal only under certain conditions in the second, and not legal in the third? Wouldn't that be a reasonable compromise? If you have a legitimate reason, you will know about that before the third trimester. You have to admit that third trimester abortions are just murder. Babies can live at that point.
Also if the mother's life is at stake should also be considered. That is very rare though.
I just think it could be solved. There are some complicated issues. Why is it that neither side is interested in any sort of compromise?
Saying life begins at conception creates problems, practical and philosophical. The other extreme, of no restrictions at all, creates the same thing.
An aside, I no longer buy it that the republican party is pro-life. They said they were, but they had the power and didn't do anything, so their claiming to be pro-life is just a lie. They need to at least explain why they made no effort when they controlled the government - the presidency, the house and the senate. Im not going to let people forget that.
So .... what do we do now? Maybe we refuse to buy into either extreme and advocate a solution that we can all live with?
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61 comments:
I'm so thrilled that you have yet made another post reguarding this... You must like all the fighting on here. Isn't another post beating a dead horse? Hasn't everyone pretty much said how they feel?
Hasn't everyone pretty much said how they feel?
>>
Yes, except for me.
And i wanted to talk about the idea for a solution.
There isn't a solution, And I beg to differ... You've said a lot. :)
"If you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged with two counts of murder, but if you help her dispose of her unborn baby, you can charge her a couple hundred bucks and say it is a choice."
-----------------------
Now, explain to me how that is comparable to choosing an abortion? Thats like comparing apples to oranges. That girl did not say kill me and my baby.
Well i am glad that this post is continued, maybe this time i will get a few more responses on how people feel about the morning after or(plan b pill). Is it or is it not abortion. Some pharmacies wont even carry it.
Now, explain to me how that is comparable to choosing an abortion?
The comparison is that it is the same act, just a different context.
Doesnt that seem ironic to you at all?
I dont think the morning after pill is abortion.
From my post, you can tell im not so sure that life begins that early.
Nothing ironic about it. It all boils down to choice.
So you don't care that it is a living human being?
From wikipedia:
Emergency contraceptive pills (ECPs)—sometimes simply referred to as emergency contraceptives (ECs) or the "morning-after pill"—are drugs that act both to prevent ovulation or fertilization and possibly post-fertilization implantation of a blastocyst (embryo). ECPs are distinct from medical abortion methods that act after implantation.
So, you see, the pill stops the pregnancy BEFORE it happens, which is not an abortion in my book. What I find ironic is that all you "good christians" believe that in each of use is a soul that will live on after death. So, do you think this soul only gets inside a baby after a doctor slaps it on the butt? Or is it there as soon as the baby is conceived? at the first beat of it's heart? When it opens it's eyes?
So, if you believe in a soul, which statistically, most of you do, AND you don't know when it enters the human body, then HOW IN THE WORLD can you condone abortion, knowing that if you are wrong, and you kill a human being with a soul, then you are surely damned to hell?
What if it were totally legal the first trimester. legal only under certain conditions in the second, and not legal in the third? Wouldn't that be a reasonable compromise?
The problem with this "solution" is that it does not address the real issue--should any INNOCENT human being be able to be LEGALLY killed?
What has 220 legs and three brain cells?
The front row at the Democrapic National Convention....
HAHAHAHAHA
A man from the Gallup polls is walking thru the city polling people's opinions...
He asks the first person he meets who they are voting for, Obama is the reply.
The next person he asks also replies Obama
The next person he asks again replies Obama. The Gallup poll guy is astounded. He asks the person, "This is Kansas, a red state, where are all the McCain supporters?!"
The person looks at their watch, and says, "Most likely at work."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHSa
While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75-year-old Kansas rancher whose hand was caught in a gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to Obama and his bid to be our President.
The old rancher said, “Well, ya know, Obama is a “post turtle.”
Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a “post turtle” was.
The old rancher said, “When you’re driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that’s a “post turtle”.
The old rancher saw a puzzled look on the doctor’s face, so he continued to explain. “You know he didn’t get up there by himself, he doesn’t belong up there, he doesn’t know what to do while he is up there, and you just wonder
what kind of a dumb ass put him up there.”
HAHAHAHAHAHA
What other creature alive has the ability to abort their offspring?
They may devour them at birth or they may be devoured as a food source at birth. Or their offspring may be killed prior to birth.
Nature left unto itself is simply efficient.
It is only mankind who was given the "Gift" of choice!
All other creatures and beings simply know their place have their task. Even the Angels and Demons are jealous!
How fitting that mankind is the only creature/being that can question his existence and seek to diminish his purpose on earth!
@2:39 PM
that's a good one.
Abortion was a Supreme Court ruling - not done by the President, Congress or the Senate. Until it comes up to the Supreme Court again, it will not be overturned. Also, you have more pro-Abortion judges on the bench -- that is the reason the next and every election is so important if you are pro-life. The President appoints these judges (for lifetime terms). President Bush appointed two very strict constructionalist judges -- so if Obama does get into office, who do you think he is going to appoint?
If your upset President Bush didn't overturn abortion -- the way I see it he did his part. So since he knew he didn't have the presence on the court to overturn this ruling -- there would be no point in sending it back thru for ruling would it? He did get partial birth abortion banned with his terms in office however and that is directly linked to President Bush and the judges he appointed. Partial birth abortion is clearly murder - I don't care what side of the fence you are on. He did more than you think he did JJ.
"Hasn't everyone pretty much said how they feel?"
no, they haven't. some are afraid. some are still hurt from a past abortion. some have had a child or relative go through this. some just plain are trying to figure out what's right.
no, they haven't all said.
I thank jj for having the guts to bring it out & hopefully we can see ourselves in the mirror of abortion. a horrific procedure. kills the baby. leaves the would-be mother in a state of shock and guilt.(maybe for life)
the only one who comes out ahead is the abortionist who get the cash. then again, maybe not even him. since his money is not green, but blood red. plus they have to bury their conscience on a daily basis to stay in business.
this has touched almost every family in one way or another. hence, some people's timidity when asked to discuss it. jj's right on this, the Dem's nor the Repub's have done one thing to even try & stop the carnage.
Heaven help us.
@3:22 PM
nicely written
How the Bush Administration Changes a Light Bulb
How many members of the Bush administration does it take to change a light bulb?
1. One to deny that a light bulb needs to be changed;
2. One to attack the patriotism of anyone who says the light bulb needs to be changed;
3. One to blame Clinton for burning out the light bulb;
4. One to arrange the invasion of a country rumored to have a secret stockpile of light bulbs;
5. One to give a billion dollar no-bid contract to Halliburton for the new light bulb;
6. One to arrange a photograph of Bush, dressed as a janitor, standing on a step ladder under the banner: Light Bulb Change Accomplished;
7. One administration insider to resign and write a book documenting in detail how Bush was literally in the dark;
8. One to viciously smear #7;
9. One surrogate to campaign on TV and at rallies on how George Bush has had a strong light-bulb-changing policy all along;
10. And finally one to confuse Americans about the difference between screwing a light bulb and screwing the country.
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JJ is on the ball today....
Couple of jokes were funny.
But this has gotten ridiculous.
Do you want me to start a joke blog post for tomorrow?
Traveler Editor said...
Couple of jokes were funny.
But this has gotten ridiculous.
Do you want me to start a joke blog post for tomorrow?
I thought this was a joke blog.....
Limits on abortion?
Lets disect every possible area:
1-Incest
2-Rape
3-conjoined twins
4-Single parent
5-poverty/lack of education/support
6-means of birth control
7-Tween
8-Drug addict
9-Aids
10-Spousal denial
11-Fetus wrong sex
12-Don't want stretch marks
13-bad genes
14-can't stand kids
swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool.
Mom and Dad spit Skoal.
If you want to get really mad, how about our best friends in the whole wide world, the Chinese, who require forced abortions on families with more than one kid?
In balance, both the pro and anti sides have it pretty good in the U.S.
There was a guy who was to be sentenced to death in our other best friends in the world Afghanistan, for downloading information about women's rights in Islam. He got mercy from the court. They only sentenced him to 20 years in prison instead.
Dozens of Saudi teen girls have been killed by their parents for having sex outside of marriage. It is legal to kill them and many times they are wrapped in a blanket and thrown into the family swimming pool to drown. It is so common that it isn't even news. BTW, the guys go free.
Our argument is only about whether a religious group has the right to impose restrictions on all others. But it is just a discussion.
It is only when religious or political dogma is forced on others through laws does it stop being discussion and become oppression like the Saudis, Afghanis and Chinese have.
Maybe the religious among us are offended with legal abortion, but they also live in a country where they are free to live their lives they way they see fit. They should let everyone else do the same.
Exactly- So maybe some of you pro-lifers should stop buying stuff made in China... You all have STRONG views on it. Stop buying ANYTHING made in China. That's something you should do to be productive in the fight.
Ahhh yeah! I just made the line for black Friday a little bit smaller and I will get all of the goods.
What qualities, features or characteristics does a human need to have to distingush himself (or herself) from an unborn fetus?
Apparently, all of the pro-choice bloggers haven't seen the abortion videos.
Google it. "Silent Scream"
Heck, I will even list some addresses to copy and paste.
Only do this if you have the time. Don't let your priorities get out of line. Afterall, they are all probably Hollywood fake jobs.
www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-4-video.html - 31k
www.silentscream.org/
www.catholic.org/video/?v=13
I hope that giant vacuum doesn't creep up on you in the middle of your slumber tonight.
The abortion industry is making close to a billion dollars a year.
Apparently this is about money and not women's choice. Afterall, if it were about the choices of females, wouldn't we be aborting just the males?
FYI: Dr. Tiller (Wichita abortion doctor) offers a Chaplaincy program that will bless your aborted fetus.
You are not fighting for the unborn you are fighting for your religious ideologies.
If you want to help the unborn: Be an activist for sex education, family planning, access to birth control and emergency contraception(i.e. morning after pill) for all women.
There must be a solution to the issue, but I dont think that is what people want.
In New Testament days, the romans had a form of abortion. If it was the wrong sex at birth, they threw the baby away. Just left it to die and threw it out.
The thing was, Christians would steal the babies and take care of them and raise them.
What if Christians took that attitude today?
Just something to think about.
Maybe not everyone cares about correcting this problem but I am sure many of the women who are currently in this horrible position of having to make this decision would welcome help and they are the ones that you want to reach out too.
Did Christians really steal babies?
I thought one of the 10 commandments was thou shalt not steal. Is there limits on stealing?
There are State and Goverment policies already in place that allows a woman to leave their newborns at the Fire Dept or specified location but that is different than a fetus within a womb and it doesn't seem to be totally effective because how many times have you heard through the media about newborns found in trash dumpsters?
If you truely want to help minimize this problem, why don't you start an organization for women without the label of "christian based", "pro-based", "anti-based" etc. and actually help these women/girls out. Maybe alot can be learned and used positively by doing this.
-Respectfully-Just an observer with questions and ideas.
If you truely want to help minimize this problem, why don't you start an organization for women without the label of "christian based", "pro-based", "anti-based" etc. and actually help these women/girls out. Maybe alot can be learned and used positively by doing this.
Its called family life services ... they have an office on Summit St.
"Did Christians really steal babies?
I thought one of the 10 commandments was thou shalt not steal. Is there limits on stealing?"
-----------------------------
Interesting no response to that question yet. Either no one is around or else someone is frantically trying to come up with a good excuse for that one!
To all those who like to pass judgement. Most women do not make an abortion decision as lightly as you all are believing.
"Did Christians really steal babies?
I thought one of the 10 commandments was thou shalt not steal. Is there limits on stealing?"
My thought on that:
Not stolen, but rescued.
thought one of the 10 commandments was thou shalt not steal. Is there limits on stealing?"
-----------------------------
Interesting no response to that question yet. Either no one is around or else someone is frantically trying to come up with a good excuse for that one!
To all
>>>>>>
I thought it was too silly of a question to answer.
No one things women make that kind of decision lightly.
The thing is, at some point there is another life involved, and that person should have rights too.
Im not sure anyone should have a right to kill someone else for their own well being
you do have that right now, but ... its still wrong
"There must be a solution to the issue, but I dont think that is what people want.
In New Testament days, the romans had a form of abortion. If it was the wrong sex at birth, they threw the baby away. Just left it to die and threw it out.
The thing was, Christians would steal the babies and take care of them and raise them.
What if Christians took that attitude today?
Just something to think about."
I'm not a christian, but I would think it would be tough to steal (or rescue) a baby that had been taken from the womb prematurely and chopped into pieces, as is done in abortions.
Well i am trying to put some thoughts together on this topic. I do believe in abortion in the first trimester only. I definitely have a hard time swallowing the story of mothers life in danger as a reason because any good parent would throw themselves in front of a speeding car (or whatever example you want to use) to save their child so how would dying in the birthing process be any differentI also believe too, that we need more intervention before the unwanted pregnancy. Some key issues i am picking up through several of these blogs that seem to associate with each other though don't add up to me. Republican(less gov control and less government help. Welfare, foodstamps, etc), Christian, prolife. Now this is only a thought and not exactly my feelings as a way to solve the issue in anyway, but if abortion was %100 banned what do we do then? Either more people will be on our welfare system or their will not be enough families to take care of the unwanted children. Where you gonna put all those children? The adoption system is a legnthy hard process and we are already fostering so many unwanted children. I guess I have a lot of mixed feelings on this topic but i do think it should be up to the woman to make that decision.
Ok, try to gather more thoughts later, gotta go to work.
Quick thought...would we even be discussing prolife, prochoice if it was the man that had to have an abortion?
" I definitely have a hard time swallowing the story of mothers life in danger as a reason..."
part of the reason Dr. Tiller got in trouble. He was having another Dr. who was a friend of his sign off on the abortions under the guise of "mental health of the mother". I believe I'm correct on this, or at least that is the crux of the charge.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Either more people will be on our welfare system or their will not be enough families to take care of the unwanted children. Where you gonna put all those children? The adoption system is a legnthy hard process and we are already fostering so many unwanted children. I guess I have a lot of mixed feelings on this topic..."
If we had not killed upwards of 40 million babies, quite likely those would be taxpayers who would now be paying taxes and maybe we would not be in the mess we're in now.
taxpayers, dr.'s, lawyers, inventors, who knows?
footnote: Now to further complicate the issue: Black women make up 12% if the population yet 35% of the abortions. Hmmm.
http://blackgenocide.org/planned.html
"Its called family life services ... they have an office on Summit St."
Is that a joke? You are trying to tell me that family life services is neither Christian based nor anti-choice? Ha.
Do you read your own articles?
http://www.arkcity.net/stories/012208/com_0003.shtml
They may try to say they are about "awareness" but at the end of the day most "awareness" groups don't hold a rally on the anniversary of Roe V. Wade and state they are decidely against abortion and have a Director who finds it necessary to thrown in that he is a Christian. Give me a break.
@ 10:18
I definitely have a hard time swallowing the story of mothers life in danger as a reason because any good parent..
What if this woman already has actual kids? A woman should have right to save her own life.
I think you make good points otherwise.
@ 11:04
Are you suggesting that planned parenthood is an organization designed to implement genocide of African Americans?
Yeah bytedaily, you do make a good point there on that one if a woman already has children. I wasn't thinking about that when I was trying to put together what I was saying.
I sure hope that if the government ever does away with abortion then they definitely better be ready to move to the moon. Seeing how this world will be so overpopulated someday. For those of you against abortion and truely believe in global warmth.. because of the population the planet will accelerate the destruction of nature even faster. I don't think of the here and now all the time, I think of what things will be like next century and on and on when I say prochoice, because it is not for everyone.
My question is Does Sperm Have a Soul? So every time a male .... (you know) it's like an Abortion right? or every month when a girl goes with out getting pregant she has killed a possible baby.
THe problem is the all or nothing mentality.
both sides want it all their way.
what if both sides compromised just a bit and worked out a deal?
"I sure hope that if the government ever does away with abortion then they definitely better be ready to move to the moon. Seeing how this world will be so overpopulated someday. For those of you against abortion and truely believe in global warmth.. because of the population the planet will accelerate the destruction of nature even faster. I don't think of the here and now all the time, I think of what things will be like next century and on and on when I say prochoice, because it is not for everyone."
Yeah, I tried that defense at my murder trial (that I was just practicing population control), yet here I sit on death row waiting for the needle. Too bad more people don't think like you, cause I'd be free to keep on practicing my population control.
to 2:48pm
go back to science class dude.
Better yet, get to holding a burial ceremony for your dna-filled regenerating epidermis.
James your right, their should be some kind of compromise. I never could comprehend a 3rd trimester abortion and even the last part into the 2nd. Really I feel 1st trimester only should be the given. If the mothers or the babies life is truly in danger and the baby could possibly live outside the womans womb, then why can't they deliver the baby at the hospital? At least it would give the baby a real chance. Then the prolifers really couldn't call it murder and the doctor and hospitals could write off the bill minus what an actual abortion would cost. Or maybe a childless couple could foot the bill and adopt the baby if it survives. I know it is not a complete solution, but it could be a step. What do you all think? Good or a hairbrained idea? Come on, I can take it.
to 8:03pm...so exactly what would you suggest? Yeah, yeah, yeah....we all know the idea of prevention of pregnancy is one. One problem with it though. IT IS NOT WORKING!!!!!
Or maybe a childless couple could foot the bill and adopt the baby if it survives. I know it is not a complete solution,
>>>
That would work.
there are christian ministries that do that now. and offer to adopt babies if the woman will not have an abortion.
there are cases where the abortion clinic has to finish off the fetus that is alive when taken out of the womb.
i dont see how anyone could honestly not call what dr. tiller does murder.
but there is big money involved. you wont find the abortion clinics doing anything to help the women do anything other than take their money to do the abortion.
and they do target black women.
truth will eventually win out.
@6:29 AM
thank you, sir.
Leave the theologens out of the debate. Different religions have different views on this matter. I'd rather have philosophers debate this one than a religio-nut.
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