Steve Abrams was at the Americans for Prosperity meeting tonight at Sirloin Stockade.
I guess AFP doesnt have an Arkansas City chapter as such, but there was a representative here.
They are a group that wants to keep taxes low and government small. Pretty much a good idea, but I don't think just cutting spending in itself is a worthy goal.
But groups like that do help keep taxes down, so im no totally down on them either
Abrams talked in detail about the technical education program that he supports. That is his big thing now and it makes sense. Create classes in high school that help train people for jobs when they graduate.
Everyone doesnt need to go to college.
And you can make a good wage with a tech certification.
Anyways, he is running for the state senate now after having spent several years on the state board of ed.
His "claim to fame" is the science standards thing. He has distanced himself from that and is not pushing that anymore.
But I will say, it was never honestly and fairly reported by the state or national media.
The standards he and his group supported did not require creationism to be taught and did not advocate it. They only said it was ok to question things like evolution.
You can still find those standards and actually read them.
He also wants to cut taxes. Most republicans, and conservatives, believe that cutting taxes is the best way to grow the economy. That if businesses are paying less taxes they will have more money to invest more in things like more employees and such.
He talked a good bit about the deficit at the state level.
Of course implying that the republicans could do a better job of managing the money.
I dont know about these economic things.
Anyway, it was an interesting experience.
Too cold to go to the arkalalah stuff anyways.
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45 comments:
Boom Chica~ Boom Chica~
The GOP is great....
Republicians allow businesses and business owners to grow, don't like tax breaks for business? They are the ones that take the risks to employee your butts. Pay the unemployment taxes, social security tax, payroll tax, insurance and tons of other little things. Business industries allow employees the opportunity to have nice jobs, nice things and keep the economy afloat.
So if you are voting democrat, thanks for sinking the rest of what is left of our economy, thanks for allowing liberals to steal our tax money and bail out embezzlers, thanks for thinking that democrats will "CHANGE" the way we do business...I guess they actually will, but for the worse.
Tax hikes, abolition of firearms, abolition of your rights guaranteed to you by the very constitution that allows them to seek office.
Liberal Democrats are the cancer of this Nation.
Im not picking sides.
I dont think either side is really right.
Liberal Democrats are the cancer of this Nation
Oh yeah sure, Just like Sarah Palin is a fatal cancer to the Republican party. Tit for tat.
Thats the thing with politics these days. Its just one side trying to beat down the other.
Getting lost in the shuffle of this is the idea of more money and emphasis on technical education - which is what Abrams is pushing.
That would be a worthy topic eh.
"But I will say, it was never honestly and fairly reported by the state or national media."
Good observation. Thanks. I guess the question is: Is anything honestly and fairly reported by the state, national media? Answer: NO.
That's why viewers are going elsewhere to get their news. We know better.
But, alas, it's always that way. So, let's not act surprised. Most media people are liberal. I said "most", not ALL. OK. so calm down. Stats will back me up on that.
Obama has been given pretty much a free pass. McCain...well he hasn't been passed so freely.
Greta Goodwin told several factual untruths and no one at the Traveler called her on it.
Mr. Abrams, well...you know the story.
Kasha has been lamblasted to no end.
Mr. Burr, well, no one really knows what he plans on doing, because he hasn't really said yet.
Need I go on?
The career tech idea seems like a good one. I am happy to see a candidate who actually has an idea. Not just more of the old "I will be your voice and work hard, ya da ya da ya da...."
So why are your mentioning Palin's tits?
Come on Gene and Jan come up with a better plan then.
Hey you stupid boom Chica Dude....quit already!!
It is not stupid to say boom chica
Copy and paste this link to learn about the financial crisis:
http://oldbluewebdesigns.com/USSA.htm
Copy and paste this link to learn about the financial crisis:
http://oldbluewebdesigns.com/USSA.htm
Isn't it interesting when some people believe everything they read and watch on the internet?
Are you saying the statements in the link are not true?
EVERYTHING on the internet is suspect. Until documented and verified.
EVERYTHING on the internet is suspect. Until documented and verified.
>>>>
And even then ...
it should still be questioned.
A lot of things have a grain of truth in them. Or are partly true.
Its the spin that makes the difference.
Always watch out for a person who says they are not spinning things ... they're either lying or just dumb. :)
I am saying not all is true. Question your source. I also thought that rumor about Obama being a Muslim was squelched along time ago. Give it up already.
"Everyone doesnt need to go to college. And you can make a good wage with a tech certification."
That is a big fat condescending ignorant lie distributed by people with advanced degrees while talking about the "little people". Don't believe it for one millisecond.
Yes you can make good money now with a trade certification.
But if you get, say, an MSCE and go for the slightly bigger bucks now, it will convince you that you don't need a degree.
Then in about 5 to 15 years, you won't be able to work in the computer business at any job other than Geek Squad making minimum wage because you don't have the degree that everybody else has. I'm not guessing.
It is like the TV commercial of the stoners that says "what will happen to you if you keep smoking pot?" And then it shows them as adults sitting on the couch eating potato chips and giggling at children's cartoons. The answer is "nothing will happen to you".
You want to know where your career will go if you don't have a degree? Nowhere. You'll have a job, but it won't ever advance.
When you're 35, do you want to make the same money doing the same job you had when you were 21?
You sure won't be a city manager. You sure won't be a supervisor anywhere. Not a manager, etc. And if you happen to be a make it up to being a manager, you will likely be replaced with someone less skilled who is more qualified because they have a degree.
I have seen a number of ex-students in EXACTLY this situation and it screws them up big time. It may be tough to get the degree now, but imagine after you have a wife and kids and a mortgage and car payments. At that point, you are stuck.
Don't fall for Dr. this or Dr. that who will paternalistically tell you that you don't need a degree. They are BS'ing you and fantasizing about how other people's lives must be.
Why did they get "their" degree?
Hypocrites giving you "advice".
Ask JJ if he would have been hired without a J school degree. How about the *next* job? Maybe in OKC. Degree or no degree? JJ?
Try it. Apply for jobs over $25,000 without at least an associates.
In KC McDonalds won't hire you as a fast food supervisor (!!!!) without a degree. The college requires a degree to be an assistant in the library stacking books.
I get really upset when people give dumbass advice that screws up other people's lives.
They should quit it.
He did address that issue.
He talked about how you can go on and get your advanced degree later.
He is talking about having a certification when you get out of high school. You could get a job and go to college then, making a decent wage.
Things are changing in this regard.
Journalism, newspapers, dont pay all that well.
Many people in newspapers dont have a j-school degree. My degree is in english and history... real useful in the working world :)
For newspapers, they want "some kind" of degree most of the time, but experience is better.
In S.C. There was a freelancer that worked for me. He flunked out of j-school because he was so busy working for newspapers.
He is now the sports editor at a nice sized paper in virginia with an 11-person staff.
But you do have a good point. Sometimes people say things to keep people down.
I think he is trying to get tech ed more into the high schools.
If you had some sort of certification coming out of high school, you would have more options.
But youre right in that if thats all you ever get, eventually you wont get ahead.
A good career tech program would probaby reduce the dropout rate of our high schools and increase the number of students who pursue college with a goal.
If this plan keeps them from dropping out of either high school or college, will that not benefit the student?
This sounds like it is extending a helping hand, not holding people down.
Its kind of interesting that the number of college students that graduate with a degree often end up with a heavy debt burden and then have to settle for sub-degree wage jobs at the start.
Or those who are overqualified due to extended education have trouble finding work.
We saw that not too long ago on this blog where someone and her husband both with college degrees were only able to find $10.00/hr. jobs.
You need to look at who is doing the welding, maintenance, electrical, Hvac, Automotive Repair etc.
I remember reading in the Wichita Eagle not that long ago that companies were desperate for machinist. The older workers were retiring or, in the case of the Aircraft companies, being forced to retire. They were offerring to train the individuals and start them at $50,000/yr.
Diesel mechanics are in demand as well.
You can preach College Degree all you want - I am not saying thats not a good plan - but there will always be a need for Vo-tech trained workers. Your high powered degrees can't make your car run or fix your plumbing.
They need to look at all the options to make good choices.
Finally, If you preach college enough and don't work to develope this area. Your simply training them to leave!
Well, you brought up Abrams and there are many who oppose him based on his belief in intelligent design.
This lead to a discussion at lunch the other day.
To make a long story short - the discussion was about Evolution.
This was my question to them-
If the Bible is true - and there was a great flood - which destroyed all life on Earth except for that on the Ark. What impact does evolution have when the only species left carried their genetic codes forward. All others perished
in the flood.
There is evidence around the world that there was a Great Flood
even in Kansas!
There are other refrences other than the Bible!
JJ you said you study the Bible-
and maybe some of the other related text. There are reasons suggested for why the Earths inhabitants in Noahs time were destroyed even the Giants.
Do you have an opinion?
It seems as though everyone but Abrams is talking about evolution. Even Greta was talking about it, in the newspaper article. I am tired of hearing of it. We all know where he stands on it.
That evolution debate was years ago. Furthermore, Abrams has been re-elected since then. Obviously enough people either agreed with or respected him enough to vote him back. So Greta wants to still bring up evolution? Why? Is she trying to sabotage her own campaign?
Lets hear some new ideas, not old news.
One of my favorite quotes of all-time.
Said by Tony Siragusa (circa January 2001) (I lined out the foul words):
"When I was in college, people told me, 'Sure, you can stop the run, but anyone can do that. If you want to make money in the NFL, you've got to rush the passer.' That's bull——. It's like all the people who tell you you've got to be in computers to make money. Yeah? You know what—you still need a ——-plumber to fix your toilet, and the scarcer they are, the more money they'll make. 'Cause what are you gonna do, call a ———computer guy to fix your ———crapper?"
Great quote.
He is right. Everyone doesnt need college.
However, I do think people would be better off if they spent a year or two in the college environment.
That in itself is a great learning experience.
Even apart from the classes.
I also want to think about the other poster's question about the flood's affect on evolution, and vice versa i guess.
Im just finishing up Saturday's paper and im too tired to think.
Everyone have a fun arkalalah tomorrow.
I think da wife has drafted me to walk with her in the parade. Right when OSU is playing Texas.
hmmmmm.
I don't believe you need a degree to be successful but that's probably because I don't have one.
@ 9:20
"If you preach college enough and don't work to develop this area. Your simply training them to leave!"
I couldn't agree with this more.
lagonda, I think it has been proven that traditional college isn't for everyone and if my daughter can get a head start working towards her LPN, mechanic certification, or high paying Traveler blog Editor/Newspaper editor/Foreign correspondent than more power to her. I really think this could help a lot of students who have lost that loving feeling for education.
I thought Tony Siragusa was a character from the Sopranos.
Time for me to sign off...
Technical Education is not on the State Assessment! Schools are only allowed to teach what the State tests... No child left behind!!!
NO child left behind is the biggest joke in the world, hmmm... i recall reading somewhere we are sinking lower and lower to the bottom on education. All it does is glorify test scores. You have a lot of smart kids that learn different ways. They do great in class until test time comes around and then you have some kids freezing up. Not everyone learns the same way and when some brainiac in our education system finally comes to that conclusion, then will our children be more successful. For the record, my spouse doesn't even have a ged and he is now a manager and doing quite well.
It is obvious that someone on this blog either must of forgot or has never taken sociology. Anyone here taken sociology? Remember from class that not everyone in the world is gonna be a doctor, lawyer, top dog business exec....? The list can go on and on. Whats gonna happen if we don't have repairmen, sanitation workers(this could be really gross if we don't have them!), sales staff, etc, etc....
Abrams idea of tech ed in high school may be a big hit and encourage more kids to stay and get their diploma. At least if a kid got that and decided they wanted to get a big college degree later in life, they will have that diploma in hand.
"For newspapers, they want "some kind" of degree most of the time, but experience is better."
My point exactly.
Sure, you can work at the Traveller or KSOK or as a retail sales counter help, work at Daisy Mae's etc. with no degree. Hell, at most places in Ark City, you don't even have to be able to spell or add. And it shows.
No big deal. And if you are happy doing that the rest of your life, then that's right, you don't need a degree. And let's be honest, not everyone is smart enough, energetic enough or interested enough to continue on and that is fine too. Some people drop out of high school too.
But don't let me catch you kvetching about the 7 to 8 bucks an hour you make, because that is part of the deal you take on when you stop your education.
You get into the big cities and $50/hour is not generally out of the range of technical, scientific, accounting, legal and management people with degrees who "also have working practical knowledge".
There is a shadow world in Ark City and Winfield where "everybody" makes that kind of money. They aren't talking except to tell kids they don't need college.
When these cats start turning in their degrees because they are better off without them, then stand up an pay attention. Otherwise regard the advice as condescending BS.
The bureau of labor statistics says that a college grad (including j school)makes on the average TWICE what a non grad (including trade schools) makes.
If you want to really help students who would get technical training, then promote technical training courses which result in a certification, but also fully comply with college course requirements, have college course credits and will transfer to other colleges toward completion of a degree.
Give these kids something they can use for their effort and money instead of trapping them into a dead end.
A parallel, non-(college)credit certification program is a waste of time. Any certification is only as good as the current technology.
If technology ever changes, which it will, then employers will not even care about an MSCE, but will want a CNE instead and regard the MSCE certification as a historical footnote. ie.,; a waste of time and of no value for the job. Screwed.
The funny and amazing thing is a chemical engineering, MBA or journalism school degree from 1960 *STILL* qualifies someone for a premium job at Conoco, even though absolutely nothing is done today in the way it was then.
Advise kids to think real long and hard about their future before going the trade school route. It is not the path to success.
If anyone promotes the tech school route, get the kind that carries college credit toward a degree, so your time and money are not wasted.
"my spouse doesn't even have a ged and he is now a manager"
I want to know more. Don't say where, but what kind of job? Has he ever looked into re-locating to a different company or town and what kind of response has he had?
If he lost his current job, what kind of shape does he feel his career is in?
My experience is that if there is a Human Resources Department, they don't even go to the trouble of talking to non-degreed applicants for management jobs.
It didn't used to be that way even 5 or 6 years ago, but it is today, fer sure.
Lagonda,
I think you have missed the point. Not everyone is going to college. In fact not everyone is even graduating from high school.
This program will help to students be better off than they were going to be.
No one is arguing that a accounting assistant makes as much as a MD. But, not everyone is going to be a MD.
Lose the bitterness, it is very unbecoming.
We'll just say he works in another town, has been offered other management jobs. Has the personality to attract customers and tends to butt heads with his bosses, but manages to be successful at what he does. Maybe it is not always about the degree in every company???
For the record, statistics are not always right.
then promote technical training courses which result in a certification, but also fully comply with college course requirements, have college course credits and will transfer to other colleges toward completion of a degree.
>>>>>
Yes !
Abrams' plan would do that.
They have very strong tech ed in south carolina .. and its one of the fastest growing states.
In recruiting major industry, they even create degrees or certifications, for specific companies.
they recruit high - tech jobs, and set up tech ed courses to train the people. by the time the company is up and running, they have a trained work force waiting for them
A friend of mine who was a newspaper editor, quit the paper and got a diesel mechanic certification, and is now making about 50 grand a year fixing diesels.
Great benefits too. fully union.
but the point is, the certification would have to be something that would be transferable to a higher degree.
would love to see some of the college degreed people do my job. cant't even find any one training to do my job. would love to see a trade school start training for my line of work. by the way i'm one of those "service" people.
There does need to be a review of the education system and how it interacts with jobs/business.
All to often education/ degree/certificate is seen as a "Right of Passage" tranferrable anywhere as qualified. Often it still requires on the job training.
If you look at the current trends the educators are promoting the degrees!
I have a aunt who is a Nurse who graduated years ago from the nursing school in Winfield. Today they are making Nursing a 4 year degree! Yet they have all kinds of Sub-level nursing jobs (CNA etc.) to supplement the shortage of Nurses. I know of several young people who are now Phycisian Assistants rather than Doctors.
Lastly, I should take you on a tour of the area. There are qualified people working jobs unrelated to their original degrees! Degrees are used as a means of limiting the number of applicants that they have to consider for the job. The requirment of a degree has been
added to job descriptions of lower levels because of the availability of those applicants. Wasn't this called Degree Creep by a previous poster?
Lastly, you can say there is no age discrimination. It simply doesn't exist!
You can't name the same job at 40 and above that you can at a younger age. The population is aging with the babyboom generation.
Its a life long journey and you have to adapt and roll with the punches.
The "Right of Passage" approach to education has probably done more to Split the Middle Class than outsourcing!
I think it would be a great thing for those not college bound to get out of high school with a technical degree. What are they doing without one? I wish all kids would understand how importatnt college degrees are and have the support and encouragement to get there. However, in the real world, it's not even on most of their minds. Some believe it is unattainable. I believe this program would benefit them greatly.
By the way, I can say from experience that a college degree is not necessary to reach management level. However, it took me twice as many years in a manufacturing facility to reach the same position I could have by going to college. The only positive thing from my route was that I was making money while advancing instead of paying in to a college.
It seems logical to me to see that in the current economy that jobs are going to become scarce. When there is a limited resource, the jobs that are available will go to the most qualified. College will win out.
and , lets not forget the labor market that promotes imigration, soon low level educated will be competeing with cheep labor to fill the managment jobs, its already happening here in our city,, if you can speak english and spanish you can beat out a College grad applicant.Obama will erase any differance between the value of your education and the cost effectiveness of cheep labor, spreading the wealth you have earned to those who are here because they can elude border guards
"However, it took me twice as many years in a manufacturing facility to reach the same position I could have by going to college."
I'm not being bitter, just realistic. The associate degree is what was intended for those who needed an entry level certification program without the full blown degree. It is fully accepted as that by industry and professions.
In fact many of the nursing certification and technology certification programs are framed as associate degrees.
Cowley offers associate degrees and these "are" a transferable gateway to careers and additional educational advancement. Why re-invent the wheel with a program that is uncertain whether it will be accepted as job qualifications. Big waste of money. Just extend the resources of the college. It's already in place.
Tech training in High School? Bonzo!! But give the kids A/P college credit for it and make it worthwhile.
Funny part is that Steve Jobs of Apple, Bill Gates of MicroSoft and Michael Dell were all college dropouts with no degree.
If you apply for a tech job at MicroSoft, Apple or Dell, you better have a degree along with your fancy certifications because otherwise they won't even talk to you.
Lagonda,
First: for the record I don't oppose College Degrees.
Second: I do oppose the one path to success approach as outlined by many who promote degrees or certicates as the only way to become qualified or successfull.
It simply does away with any competition Private or Public.
The question has to be asked:
Why isn't there training available through the Private Sector? Private Business or Technical Schools?
Finally, While a degree last a life time and gets your foot in the door. How many people are forced to accept positions that are not related to their degree.
If you want examples I won't have to go far to find them -
I know people that have degrees
Who:
Drive trucks
Work industrial jobs - for
the benefits. (Health ins.)
Have engineering degrees and
work manufacturing and/or
construction.
and there is more -
-because they can make more
-have a vested interest in
the area
-own a house or have family
locally
-or are older with less
options (ex. health)
The "Right of passage" approach only creates an environment of regulation and a shortage of qualified applicants.
It also by design creates a sub-class of workers.
Those with degrees may get the jobs but they will support those who don't work or are unemployed!
I don't think we disagree on how important knowledge is in curent day business environment.
But, I think we do disagree on how that knowledge should be acquired!
"But, I think we do disagree on how that knowledge should be acquired!"
We don't disagree at all. Most things that are worth a crap didn't come from people with advanced college degrees.
Almost everyone involved with the screwed up Wall Street had advanced degrees. Enron, Iraq, the roundabout, etc. need I say more?
But the way the world works now is, in order to apply for anything other than a menial or entry level job, you have to go through Human Resources departments.
Because they have absolutely no clue anymore about people's skills, they simply look at a resume and see what kind of degree the applicant has. If they meet the requirements (a degree) then they are interviewed. If not, they are toast. It is laziness and professional incompetence, but that is the way it works.
There is a big difference in advising kids on career options based on a Utopian way "things really should be" and advising kids on "the way things are".
"The way things are" is more helpful for their future.
I would never tell a kid today to hitch his 30 year future to a trade certification he got in Ark City in 2008. Things change. Degrees are universal and timeless. Easy choice. No brainer.
I didn't make the rules. But I do know them.
There is a big difference in advising kids on career options based on a Utopian way "things really should be" and advising kids on "the way things are".
"The way things are" is more helpful for their future.
I would never tell a kid today to hitch his 30 year future to a trade certification he got in Ark City in 2008. Things change. Degrees are universal and timeless. Easy choice. No brainer.
Well, what I didn't hear was your advice for those who don't have the option of a college degree?
Utopian or not the goal should to be to make as many as possible responsible contributors.
***WARNING*** Long boring reading below. If you aren’t interested in the whole degree vs. tech ed. discussion please save yourself some time and skip this rambling series of thoughts.
I have looked at over a thousand resumes screening for candidates. I am not an hr person but have often been in a position to hire and fire. I can tell you that some times I've looked for degreed candidates and sometimes that has not mattered to me as much and may even prefer a non-degreed candidate if they have the requisite other characteristics. Lagonda is correct in stating that the dumbing down of hiring by hr departments is problematic for those without degrees but that is not universal and is not true for all job types. There has been a lot of discussion of the benefit of those with advanced degrees and very little of how that can also be a detractor. There are many jobs where the person hiring knows intrinsically that a person with an advanced degree would be a particularly poor choice for a wide variety of positions based on many factors. The degreed candidate would quickly become bored. They would expect more money than what the position can justify, etc. etc. There are many instances when you simply want a hard-working dedicated reliable individual who you know you can depend on to get the job done and do it right with pride. Often that is NOT a degreed applicant. Many with degrees think that having that degree will pay their ticket from that point forward. The degree itself does not usually get the foot in the door but it is often used simply as a pre-qualifier for consideration and this is usually a short-sighted and inconsequential minimum threshold. It is very similar to the way colleges look at applications and won't even consider a kid who didn't score x on their sat or act. If I was in college admissions I would far more depend on other areas of consideration like life experience or demonstrated ability to perform than how they scored on some test. We all know that test scores don't equivocate to intelligence and give you zippo indication of a level of manual dexterity or common sense or technical ability or learning ability etc. I'm far more interested in life skills, ability to interact well and get along with others, communication ability, learning aptitude, grace under pressure and how they handle stressful situations, general attitude, whether the person has a life purpose and on and on. I can't tell you how many kids I've seen who are looking for the big bucks think you owe them something especially because they have a degree and have horrible resumes that show they've worked in 5 different places in 5 years. The last thing I want is to hire and train someone and invest so much into them and have them take off to go try to make more somewhere else. What a waste of time.
All that to say there is certainly a place for tech ed and we need a much stronger focus there at both the high school and juco level. College is certainly not for everyone. I can't tell you how many papers I've read that were written by fellow students and I thought to myself that these poor kids never should have gotten out of high school much less be in college. They didn't have the drive nor the motivation. They were there for one reason and one reason only and it was because their parents could afford it and believed that providing that kind of education was the key to the success of their kids. They were partly correct because they basically enabled their kid to keep skating and end up getting a job because some hr person was dumb enough to see their degree and like them and give them a chance. I'm sure there would have been others without the degree who would deserve it more appreciate it more and do better work.
Even with tech ed. it is usually just a foot in the door type of thing. You aren't in most cases likely to step into the sweet spot. You are still expected to pay your dues. Those jobs are still quite respectable, readily available, and pay well enough for you to actually be listed amongst our nations taxpayers (over 36k). Why wouldn't we want to be more like some of the world's other industrialized nations like Germany, Japan, etc. where they start early in determining what a kid's path will be. They do a lot of screening and aptitude testing and figure out if a kid is going to college or is going to start in apprenticeships and specialized training. We should hope to have a system that works as well as theirs.
As an aside there are a great deal of kids I’ve seen get hosed with their associates. Having an associates from a juco is a great way to save some money getting your basics out of the way and getting partying out of your system before going on to a 4 year school but there are way too many times when the student didn’t do enough due diligence to make sure their credits would transfer smoothly to the four year. You have to check with the admissions departments of both the 2 year and the 4 year to make sure you will get proper credit for your classes. You can take fluff classes at a 4 year and get away with it but you can’t take them at a 2 year and expect the 4 year to recognize them.
I think we need to get away from the "either - or" way of thinking.
It is not one or the other that should be a question.
That is a point Abrams is making.
Tech Ed should be ANOTHER option, not a place to send people who cant get a degree.
The whole system needs to be changed.
A certification is just as good as a degree in some cases.
But they should be transferable.
I can tell you a certified welder, plumber, electrician with no four-year degree, makes more than a journalist with a masters degree.
A degree or a certificate is not a guarantee of anything.
There are people with phd's who are unemployed and high school dropouts who are millionaires.
The point abrams is making is that Kansas is behind other states in this area. Companies go to other states because they can go there and get the workers trained in various areas.
A huge problem is kansas is finding employees. Trained ones are even harder to find.
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