Greetings.
A lot of people showed up at the town hall meeting last night, and seems like quiet a few were participating in the live blog.
Again, public outcry has made a difference. The water fee thing will be changed at the next meeting. The crash recovery fee has been dropped.
I think its good when people get riled up.
I enjoyed doing the live blog. It was intense for me.
Hope you all understand about the typing. I was trying to type on there, and type some notes for a story, and trying to pay attention. That was the hardest thing, keeping track of what was going on as I typed.
There were also people typing in questions and comments.
I had to approve those for those to appear. I put up a lot of them. Some I just didn't have time to look at and others were not suitable.
I thought it was also interesting that people questioned the mayor about his business dealings. He answered the questions. Ill be getting a more in depth story on that together soon.
Ill try the live blog thing again soon.
Thanks to the city for their cooperation.
I would like to know what you all thought about that.
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66 comments:
I liked the blog, but I'd rather have the meeting on video. How hard would it be to set a camcorder on a tripod in the corner?
I look forward to your article on the mayor. He is trying to get hospital contracts for his cronies.
I think that would be possible.
We have some technical issues to work through, but its probably in the future.
They do broadcast the meetings. They do not broadcast the forum. The city feels that people might not be as willing to speak if they are on TV.
I hope to do more live blogs.
Maybe we can add video to that at some point.
Well, it did stop them from being on KAKE tv last night. I think when people get pissed off enough, they will not care if they are on tv or not.
The live blog was good but it could be great. I didn't really understand why you couldn't use the live blog as the notes. I didn't feel like we got all the information. I LOVE the idea. I also understand it was the first time and there is room for improvment. Great going. Thanks Kanyon and everyone else that stood up. I understand the mayor Kuhn has been a bit of a dictator that doesn't listen to the people. That needs to change and maybe after last night his eyes have been open.
He is trying to re-organize the hospital board, since they are not willing to let him "dictate" the construction and other works regarding the hospital. When he can't bully people to get his way, he gets rid of them. He is not leading, only dictating which is not good for anyone but himself.
He is not leading, only dictating which is not good for anyone but himself.
To be fair, not just himself but some of his buddies in Wichita.
The members of the city Commission announced that the city is wanting contact with people who got their water shut off and seeing if they can help work this out. They will of course rework this water bill ordin. out at the March meeting but for now they are trying to help peole get their water back on. Even if yesterday you were told no call again and see if they can help you. The city commission has become very pro active in working this out for the citizens
Call the city water billing if you are on the disconnect list or currently have your water shut off.
441-4401
why you couldn't use the live blog as the notes.
>>>
I think i can now.
I was just unsure how it would work.
So wanted to be safe.
As far as Kuhn and the people attacking him for his business doing jobs for the city, I believe like he said those bids are all closed and open at once and talked about. If his is local and the lowest then why should he not get the work? As far as the hospital board goes, it sounds like there has been too many people on the board for some time. Again if the bids are the lowest and under the budget for the hospital I do not see a problem with it as long as they are a quality business. It seems there are a lot of people stretching for issues still with the mayor. Left over pain from a box store they wanted to pay for I guess.
It is good to hear they are going to work with people on the water bill issue. If people make an effort to resolve the situation then they should have some flexibility as long as the problem is not a habit. It comes down to responsibility. If you pay your bill when you receive it, you should have no problem.
How is that Kool-Aid you're drinking??
Even if there is no wrong doing (and I'm not saying there is or isn't because I don't know), the appearance of inpropriety is too much.
He should abstain from bidding on city jobs as long as he's on the commission. If he'd rather be able to bid, he can quit the commission.
Just a suggestion but why not find out when they are taking bids on the hospital, then show up for the bidding? Then any doubt will be taken care of. You can see firsthand what is or isn't happening. I've never been to one so I wouldn't know myself. I heard that they are going to pick three contractors soon then choose from those three who they want.
I thought that last nights live chat was great. Then I read today that skateboarders were brought up in the meeting. Not one thing was said about it on the live chat. I know not everyone cares about this issue but it is the reason I was on the live chat. Next time I just hope that every issue can be covered. Other then that GREAT WORK!!! How many people were active on the chat?
"He should abstain from bidding on city jobs as long as he's on the commission."
Knock, Knock... is anyone there?
It is called "conflict of interest" and is a violation of most city's and state's ethics codes for a city (or state) official or employee to provide a business service to the city while being in office or employed by the city.
I'm pretty sure it is against Kansas State law. I just haven't bothered yet to hit the law books on it.
Hays seems to think it is a crime for which the person can be arrested.
KCK prohibits it for 1 year after the person leaves office or employment.
But the Ark City Mayor thinks there is no problem?
He made $60 grand off the city before becoming mayor and $130 grand after?
Don't they teach intro to business law and government 101 at Cowley? Is anyone that dumb?
Just one more thing the city attny needs to do. Run a seminar for all elected officials and employees on ethics and what constitutes a conflict of interest and official malfeasance.
Can Kuhn be doing contracting business for the city at the same time he is Mayor? Is there a problem with that?
Umhhhhhhhhhhh.......
Duhhhhhhhhhhh.......
(think)
Jill the skateboard(s) or park really wasn't brought up, One man said that he thought they jumped the gun on tearing down the old park and kinda putting the kids on the street so to speak. The mayor said do you know why we tore it down, we tore it down because it was unsafe. that was the entire discussion. But I know that it is an important issue and wil be brought up many more times so that it stays fresh in people's minds.
Thank you for accurately reporting what I said.
I do not know if there are shenanigans going on I only know that the appearance exists.
Nola
Sec. 2.56.040. Conflict of interest prohibited.
(a) No local governmental officer or employee shall, in the capacity of such an
officer or employee, make or participate in the making of a contract with any
person or business by which the officer or employee is employed or in whose
business the officer or employee has a substantial interest.
Sec. 2.56.150. Penalties.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any officer or employee of the city to knowingly violate
any of the provisions of this article, and upon conviction, shall be subject to
penalty provision provided in this Code, Chapter 1.08.
How many people were active on the chat?
Thanks Jill
The skateboarders were just barely mentioned, as Kanyon said. At this point im tired and dont remember if i put it in the paper or not.
He just said he thought because they had torn down the skatepark, they had forced the skaters onto the street.
That was all that was said.
The response has been incredible.
I would guess 10-15 people participated in the chat.
But. there were well over 200 unique visits to the site last night and about that many today.
Thats well over twice as many as usual.
We are thinking of other ways to use this.
Or influence others, or work in non-KOMA meetings about, or whatever.
If it comes down to city utility decisions, the Mayor would have to recuse himself from just about every Commission meeting. When it comes to hospital board appointments, contracts, tradesmen licensing, etc., same same.
It is really foolish to think he could be a major contract player while Mayor.
Who is the other large plumbing and airconditioning contractor working for the city?
What do they bill Ark City?
Point made.
Do other contractors feel they have a chance?
Man on the street interview potential here.
Does the City Attorney in KCK or Hays think it is a problem?
Dig for your article and you will find it. Don't look too deep if you don't want to know, because it "is" there.
Good luck on your article.
You can help create a return to ethics in AC.
Skateboarding was not a big issue last night for a few reasons. First we would have been a minority group and things never seem to turn out well for minority groups in large angry public gatherings. Second the city has offered to try and reach a compromise with the kids and are working with me to get approval for them to skate some of the local parking lots. Third our meeting with the rec center is tomorrow morning so we had no real new news to report other than what was said at the last city meeting. Trust me I am watching the ordinance carefully and will address it when it comes back up but I still think that if I go in guns blazing I (and the skaters) would be getting far less help. Once again I do urge the commission to make an ordinance that all can understand, study it and please do the research. We don't need another public outcry like the water bill or egg on our face like the crash tax. As Mel said in the city meeting all generations since Rome have thought the next generation would doom them all. Even though Rome did fall I don't think that this is the generation to cause that again.
Zach,
I would hope that until the skatepark comes to be, that there will be an actual map of where my son can skate. It is very confusing to hear one thing from the commission and another from the PD :{
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound upset. Nor do I think that there was any new news about it. I was just stating that the live chatters missed a lot of information including whole topics. Once again I very much enjoyed the chat and will be participate again.
As far as Kuhn and the people attacking him for his business doing jobs for the city, I believe like he said those bids are all closed and open at once and talked about. If his is local and the lowest then why should he not get the work?
One thing you must consider when you say you think it okay if he is the lowest bid ( and this was mentioned in the meeting) that some of the bids in the past have had cost overuns that made them in the end higher than some of the other bids. This happens a lot in major constructions with weather, delayed partsor equipment needed or even sub contracters being late on some things the general contracts out. Say you have the general contract but your sub contracter hoses you on some prices and will not work until you agree the higher cost of material or labor some one is going to pay, but if the general contractor has or is a big enough outfit that they can do 80% of woork and sub-contract less than 20% then his low bid would be good for AC,but if it is reversed then that low bid can cost you more thn what has been budgeted for the project. And one should also think how much the general public service from kuhn's plumbing would suffer because now all his attention has to be focus on the big job and Government Inspectors kepping that time tied up to. It was stated a couple of times in the meeting about cost overruns on some of the bids kuhn had received from city (T/F you decide) as to how much was acttually saved with that busainess getting the bid and I tink those remarks sort of set him off about a lot of things!!(TEMPER TEMPER TEMPER!!!!!)
Just somethging to think about
N.R.N.or N. (for dummies NO RESPONSE NEEDED or NESSARRY
I haven't looked into this at all about the bid process. I don't have any answers and really don't have any questions yet and I am not taking to task anyone who spoke at the meeting or on blogs.
But I am always mindful of Richard Jewell. (google him if you don't remember him) he did nothing wrong and yet he was sliced and diced, mulched without a single shred of any evidence that he ever did anything. And when it finally came out that there was nothing that he had done wrong, his life had been shattered. The TV cameras that had captured every moment of his life being ripped apart, were long packed up and gone, his complete innocents merely a blerp.
Each person that spoke at the meeting offered the first comments of I don't have any information on this, or I heard a rumor, or I am not saying that anything was done but.....
Again I don't know anything about the bid process but I do know that everyone has feelings
by their own admission at the beginning of each statement they had no facts or proof, they were just asking
And it took me back many years and the wide range of emotions that we all watched Richard Jewell go through before our eyes.
I do have a map that was emailed to me as to where it is illegal to skate. Anyone that would like a copy please email me at liberecland@gmail.com. We met with the Rec Center this morning and they all seemed optomistic about the idea of a skate park. They vote next month to see if we fall into the umbrella of the recreation center. A piece of advice I give to all parents is please ask antyone you know if it is okay for your kids to skate their property. Whether it is a churck or business if their parking lot is private then they can give written permission that can be turned into Steve Archer and get the police off their backs. If it is city owned property it can still be turned in and if we get all the businesses on that block it opens up areas in the revised ordinance they are working on. I myself have been doing this but I am only one man so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all for the tremendous support!
by their own admission at the beginning of each statement they had no facts or proof, they were just asking
>>
Good point Kanyon.
There are some people who are going to believe the worst and make accusations no matter what.
One fact I can give you is that, according to the last Audit of city finances, all of Kuhn's business dealings were ruled legal.
This Audit is paid for by the city. It is done by an independent auditing firm which has no reason to go one way or the other on anything. The audit is required by either state or federal law.
They found some minor things that the city may not have done just right, but nothing of significance.
Im planning on doing a more in depth story on Kuhn's business dealings very soon.
One thing I can say, is that in preliminary looking around, both Kuhn and the city seem willing to give out information.
Its just a matter of me getting time to do it.
You know its kind of amazing that the Government can get anything built at all. By the time the contractors do all the paperwork and meet all the regulations and inspections the job takes twice as long. Unless your building a critical bridge in California.
Why would you not want to use a local contractor?
Yes there are big generals like Conco and they do all the work with a few subs. They do hire locals where they can - but, they leave town when the work is done!
If Kuhn's work is substandard then you might have a gripe! I don't think that is the case.
But he might just be able to reinvest the local money in his and other businesses. Isn't that building up the area?
I know you want to spend somewhere else and help someone else build or make your money off AC and leave town!
Seems to be a trend!
It seems to me that folks tend to forget that one of our former mayors has a husband who owned a salvage/tow business that got most if not all of the vehicle tows that the police dept deemed necessary to remove from private property, as junk.
Since she has left office, I see several that fit into the catagory that was used to determine which ones should be towed while she was in office. Did we stop doing this,why?
The point is moot.
If the mayor is willng to work with the city, and have his company
bid contracts, and wins the contracts, and abides by them as would any other business, what is the problem.
We tend to look for problems where none exist, then make a big todo about nothing.
Until improprity is proved, and underhanded doings uncovered, as fact, not inuendo, get on with the things that need to be addressed.
Too many cry sour grapes when none exist. Don't be petty.
Zach,
Wow. Your spelling and grammar have improved so much since you first came on here that I just had to stop and recognize you for it.
Bravo.
That kind of self improvement is admirable, and now people are more apt to take you seriously.
The reason that there are laws to prevent officials from providing services to the city they administrate is to prevent illegal corruption.
How can this be new material to Ark City?
Where is the city attorney?
It is without doubt that his business with the city has doubled since taking office. He needs to either step down as mayor and continue to do business, or stop doing business and continue as Mayor. To do both is a conflict of interest.
The reason that there are laws to prevent officials from providing services to the city they administrate is to prevent illegal corruption.
..........
Good Point!
But in small communities you might be suggesting that no business owner should run for public office.
How many contractors do you see in the area?
The real corruption is the willingness to disrupt any progress by any means!
prevent illegal corruption.
>
Would that be as opposed to legal corruption?
I may have accidentally deleted someone's post.
Sorry about that.
If you will repost it ill leave it alone.
You can get the facts at www.arkcity.org thenclick on the first link then click on city commission then click vendor list.
To save some time her is what he made off the city, 2001= 375.00, 2002=22,926.00, 2003=37,888.00. For 2004 to 2006 0000. Then in 2007=130,365.00, and in 2008=91,185.00. Just thought you all would want to know.
Fundamental differences in the two scenarios is that the previous Mayor served as Mayor while her husband continued to operate his business. She was, in effect, an employee of the busness.
Further, this was a service triggered by enforcement of a municipal code(s) i.e. junk vehicles, abandoned vehicles, impounded vehicles in connection with arrests. The municipal policy was to cycle through the local tow services equally. That, in fact is what most cities do. They allow tow services to enter their name on a list and it just rotates.
No bidding occurs. No insider information concerning which vehicle might be operated on a given day or night by an impaired driver. Just a willingness to get out of bad @ 3am to go remove a vehicle and take to a secured location.
On major projects, the "bid" process is defined by state statute. The issues that trigger ethics review is whether any one potential general contractor has access to information not available to others or if a contractor might through some leverage influence the bid or selection process.
That would include things that are available but not requested by others while one bidder might have been tipped off. It might also include the ability to influence the employment status of employees reviewing and awarding bids. BTW: Mr. Kuhn has only one employee as an elected official. That one empoyee has independent control over the hiring/firing/promotion/demotion of all other city employees. (ref: ethics of Governor Palin firing of State of Alaska Dir. of Pub Safety)
Code of Ethics requires that all contractors be afforded the same information - that means if one requests, all potential bidders would recieve the same info.
Two things (among many) are possible I beleive. First, an elected official could have knowledge relevant to true project costs that other competing bidders do not have. Secondly, any elected official who is also a business owner with business interests in municipal projects CAN conduct business without compromising ethics. Both are highly possible scenarios!!
It is the integrity of the person that is at question. One should not raise questions about another's integrity without cause for suspicion.
On the other hand, a potential general contractor has got to take into account the likelihood that the integrity of the process will come into play in such circumstances.
Review the recent history of Chicago metro municipal government. In recent years the question was raised about the notable population of relatives of the Mayor who held prominent positions in City Hall. On one side, it was argued that the Mayor was illegally manipulating government to the advantage of his own family/relatives. The counter argument was that 1) the mayor came from a large family and 2)those relatives(and it was proven) all held the credentials/qualifications for the positions in which they served. They maintained that service to the citizens was part of their family legacy.
You cannot say let's not question unless something surfaces. Nothing surfaces unless someone questions.
Opinion: I think Mell Kuhn is an honest business man and runs his business well. I also think he should expect such concern and stand on his own integrity (and stop spazzing over rumors).
Conclusion: Now, you have the framework for a debate on ethics.
Final footnote: Ethical and legal are not synonymous. One might be unethical without being illegal. Because somthing is legal may not make it ethical.
I know. My posts are too long but I hate to release incomplete thoughts. It is why I cut way back on putting anything on here. People like soundbites. I think soundbites get distorted 90% of the time.
At least you space it and make it easier to read!
Charles,
In a small city like AC - what is the volume of contracts awarded -
say on an annual basis?
Do you think for the sake of ethics that the project should be delayed until Kuhn/or anyone else is out of office so he/they can bid?
I'll bet you wouldn't say a word when he did work in another City!
BTW - There are businesses that have to bid projects outside the area. They have to do so to keep their doors open and maintain the same level of qualified workers.
It's too bad that people that don't get their way - like LOWES -
can't move forward. But then its people like them that want to own and run the whole show!
re: February 26, 2009 12:30 PM
A thorough and detailed analysis is being performed on all of those bids Kuhn was awarded and will be submitted in their entirety to James to be published in the paper and here. I hope you have the guts to read it and are willing to believe the truth and admit it if you have been wrong (especially Ed and Nola).
Anonymous wrote:Charles,
In a small city like AC - what is the volume of contracts awarded -
say on an annual basis?
Do you think for the sake of ethics that the project should be delayed until Kuhn/or anyone else is out of office so he/they can bid?
My comments were: February 26, 2009 12:51 PM
You cannot say let's not question unless something surfaces. Nothing surfaces unless someone questions.
Opinion: I think Mell Kuhn is an honest business man and runs his business well. I also think he should expect such concern and stand on his own integrity (and stop spazzing over rumors).
Conclusion: Now, you have the framework for a debate on ethics.
Kuhn is a hot head who has let what little power he has go to his head. Now we can't even point out that his dealings with the city can be seen as having an appearance of inpropriety without him coming unglued.
What did he expect when he went from doing no busines with the city to doing 130k after becoming mayor?
Watch closely - This started with some secret texts I reported months ago. Watch carefully, many will be astonished how this turns out.
Also, what the heck is McGrew doing on the hospital board? That makes as much sense as the rest of this situation.
Finally, how odd that any number of commishes can be local business owners, but they only want to allow one doc on the hospital board. Probably because it could create a conflict of interest. Wait...what?
Charles:
As a previous Mayor I can see that you fully understand the problem.
You are right. Once the bids have been let, though, it is impossible to determine anything about the behind the scenes activities. Ie: what was right and what was wrong.
That is why there are ethics ordinances and laws that outright prohibit that action. It keeps people honest.
The 3rd thing to improve Ark City is to create a firm ethics standard which could go into effect with the new mayor whoever that may be, prohibiting his or her contracting for personal business with the city. Extend it to all city officials and employees. Just like most other towns do.
Oh, and just wait til you see how the football stadiu...err school bond imrovements get handled. This hospital stuff is small potatoes. Someone really stands in a position to clean up here.
OK, as a former Mayor, I will say this. It is painful to watch this community coming apart and dividing itself in this manner.
In my tiny little circle I have been drawn into conversations with folks who do not understand the "black box" part of local government. Of course, there are the critics. My standing response to those (and you anonymous bloggers) is there is no documented record of any of these folks having taken City Hall by force or coup. These folks are your choice. You did not distrust them when you elected them. Maybe you did not really even listen to what they said as candidates. It's a problem for which the corrective steps can begin now.
There need to be ten groups who schedule candidate forums so that you KNOW what to expect from the folks in the five seats.
I speak now, to the issue that really matters. We simply are an anxious and understandably inpatient community now. The global economic implosion has everyone frightened and economically suppressed communities such as AC may really suffer.
Anxiety, or fear, can bring out the worst in people. We attack. We distrust. We divide. But, in doing so, we almost assure ourselves that "WE LOSE!!!"
It is a turbulent time. The answer cannot come from City Hall exclusively or from government exclusively. It can, however, come from grassroots efforts and neighbors pulling together and looking out for each other.
Survival comes from efforts such as Citizen Advocate Kanyon challenging bad policy or practice and exploitation of struggling families.
This is a time when we should replicate that behavior. That is not to say we need to protest at City Hall. It is to say be driven by the same concern for others that has kept her going.
We have become mean, in the eyes of outsiders. We are desperate and that desperation is pioneered by two recent proposals that were clearly predatory.
There was a measure of hope indicated in the passing of the two sales tax proposals. I for one thought two at once would never fly. Yet, the citizens, through the democratic process issued a mandate to grow and build and move forward.
Diligence and scrutiny are the order of the day. WE cannot afford, like Congress, to mishandle astronomical sums of cash. However, the brightest facilities and the soundest infrastructure will not over-ride the impact of people tearing at one another's throats.
There is a group coming forward with a desire to foster healing and congealing dialog. I strongly encourage any and all of you to grab a neighbor or family member and sit in on one of these.
Finding the common ground was the theme presented by a group of respected ministers in this community. They will be taking action soon. That, my friends and neighbors, is the better use of your time.
Yes, some need your scrutiny. But more need your help. People needed Kanyon's help. There are hundreds more in this community who need a caring person to offer a helping hand and a compassionate ear.
Well, I put this here but I am going to copy and paste it onto my blog. At last, I have something to post there! Yea!
Mr. Kuhn may have won the bids but in his position as a commissioner, he can make sure that some items written into the bid lean toward his firm.
Sealed bids are to be open on certain days but is that the way it really is?
A contractor will indicate that he thinks bids will be "X amount" and that information goes to the commission...a person wanting the contract knows how to wait for that information and then jump on it...I have been around construction bidding process since I was a kid and it is seldom secret.
All Kuhn has to do is see what the bids are and bid a bit lower, and then charge more in the end because of "cost overruns".
It may not be illegal, but it is unethical, and it just plain stinks.
All Kuhn has to do is see what the bids are and bid a bit lower,
or
He might be cheaper cause he's
local.
You really need to ask the mayor how many deliquent water payments he has. He is one of two (Scott) commisioners to have have several late payments. Its funny that Scott wants to get rid of the water charges (for votes in April and so he won't have to pay). It also a conflict of interest for our commisioners to create a solution to a problem they are themselves a part of.
I think in the midst of all this controversy that Kuhn should back away from bidding on city projects. Doesn't it bother him that the citizens are up in arms because of his behavior?
Ark City.....wake up! PLEASE get out and VOTE for new city commissioners when the time arrives. I said it when the Lowe's fiasco happened and I am saying it again......I hope the 3 city commissioners who are in their first term are enjoying it....because I HIGHLY DOUBT THERE WILL BE A SECOND!
I could not agree more.
The process is sealed bids. The bids are "let out" to qualified general contractors. Those folks are responsible for estimating the costs of the project absed on engineering standards assigned to the project. State and/or federal law dictates those Engineering standards.
A time is set for all bids to be submitted. And, that time is publicly communicated. Typically via an internal memo which copies the commission and sometimes during the public meeting, staff will re-state the time of bid opening.
The bids are opened by staff and reviewed. There is NO ALLOWANCE for someone to see the other bids and then submit a lower bid. That would be a huge violation of state law by the staff!
The bids are all opened at the same time, on the same day and with witnesses (multiple staff persons) present.
Typically, the bids are all within 10% of each other because the greater portion of the bid is material costs and those costs are fairly constant due to the prevailing engineering standards.
Costs are more typically influenced by things such as contractor labor costs, staging costs (such as travel time), available technology by the contractor and other overhead costs the contractor must manage within their own business.
If a business is well run, as is Kuhn Plumbing, they tend to offer a very competitive bid. Kuhn is prudent with business costs. He runs a tight ship. I can see where he might offer the most attractive bid on projects.
Also, other than the hospital project, most of the projects being let for bid were initiated prior to his coming onto the counsel.
I can understand the citizen concern to a degree. However, the projects were in the queue years ago. Kuhn Plumbing has been in business for years and every voter knew Mell Kuhn was the owner when he was elected.
I think it bears a bit of tempering before one starts hurling accusations about inpropriety here. You placed him in that position and aforded him a vote of trust.
Having offered that opinion, if he sought my advice, I would advise that he tread lightly on the hospital project as it is one that he, as an elected official, brought to the public. Certainly, he would do well to allow other commissioners to interfcae with the hospital board on any related issues.
That is most definitely gray area or, as one phrase puts it, the slippery slope. The key to doing right is putting one's self in a position to do right.
Removing himself from active discussion about the hospital project would fit the definition of putting himself in a position to do right.
The beauty of being able to hide behind anonymous and shout at the same time is affored you by the soldiers who are fighting for freedom. For you to have the freedom to say what you say when you want to say it. Thank them.
As for the late water bill payments so what? Is there a point there or are you just throwing that out there to see if it will do what?
Again So WHAT! Both of the commissioners have said repeatly that they have paid late and paid the penalty.
Again so what so do over 1000 account holders average every month. Again SO WHAT! I am sure that you were trying to make a point I just don't get it. Where are you going wth that?
As for the other anonymous and the Lowe's things, this elected body did not say they could not build here or open a store here, they said they could not/ would not give them a TIF big difference.
I have repeatedly said that I didn't care one way or the other about if or even if Lowe's builds here, but the commission this commission was elected to represent all the people.
When future promises are made about things down the road, that is great and we should all keep reaching. Thinking outside the box challenging ourselves and our neighbors to dream big, and strive for the best,
but what happens when too many irons are in the fire at once, too many tax credits are on the books at once, to many 10 year down the road promises are out there looming.
What happens when they start to fall like dominos business that have been given lots of credits and lots of tax breaks goes under, what happens to the taxpayers then.
The tax dollars that shoulda, woulda, coulda are gone,
And the little tax payer has to once again pick up the ax and start digging out.
Anonymous @ 9:22 a.m.: How do you happen to have information regarding who has late payments? And I'm NOT either person you mentioned.
The agenda packet for the March 3 council meeting is online at the city's website.
water bill issue, skateboard ordinance and hospital board reorganization charter ordinance looks to be up for vote.
If you think the TIF is such a horrible thing then perhaps you too have been sold a bill of goods by the naysayers. I am sick to death of people saying look at Walgreens, K D Pharmacy, etc. etc...they came here without TIF. That is true but they had all the infrastructure in place. Lowe's did not have that and wanted help getting it...in return this town would have benefitted. If Mr. Kuhn and his friends wonder why we mistrust them...because they flushed away the biggest opportunity we have had in years to grow. If Mr. Kuhn continues to mess with this hospital mess we could and may lose that too.
He may be in the sewer business but there is a reason for that...he is sending the city there very quickly in his efforts to save us from progress.
To all of those that wanted Lowe's remember when you vote who to support...
@charles:
"We are desperate and that desperation is pioneered by two recent proposals that were clearly predatory."
I picked this out to quote, because, I agree and I am in a delimma. Desperate is a good word. I am trying to figure out, why, in desperation was 1 of the proposals targeted at the poor and most defenseless among us? Poor people cannot defend themselves, hire lawyers, etc. Certainly wealthy or well-to-do citizens would not be torpedoed by a $100.00 fee. But, a single mother, retiree, or simply a low-wage couple could be devestated. It must be said, that I believe all the commissioners are honest, and have a sincere desire to help the town of A.C. One just wonders how they could have combined and come up with this. (though I believe 2 did vote against it, kudos for them)
Just venting, don't really expect you to have the answer, but, feels good to get it off my chest. Ahhhh...I feel all better now.
Anonymous wrote: One just wonders how they could have combined and come up with this. (though I believe 2 did vote against it, kudos for them)
Well, there was a time when the staff and the commissioners may have come to, or assembled, a citizen group to address this type of problem.
It may have even been a good idea to start a dialog through the media about this problem to see if the citizen/customers had reasonable remedies. At least to raise awareness of the problem would have been better.
The problem with this is that the policy idea came from an ivory tower approach where two staff persons created their own notion of what the problem was, what the cause was and a reasonable remedy based on their "antiseptic version" of things.
They did not consider the 82 year old citizen who really should have someone taking care of his business but won't because of pride. That man would rather take a belt whipping than be late paying a bill. However, he forgot. NO!!! He did not squander his money at the casino and would mortally offended for someone to suggest he would even step inside the casino doors.
He just did what 82 year old people do. He forgot!! And when he discovered his water service had been interrupted on Tuesday morning, he went to City Hall and paid his bill plus $100 to have service restored.
I refuse to believe that any respectable citizen or City employee feels good about taking $100 from a kindly old man who just has an occasion to forget and absolutely no history of paying the bill late.
Mr. Massey never took such scenarios into consideration when he proposed this. Neither did he and his staff researcher consider those such as the gentleman who came to the Town Hall meeting identifying himself as both physically and mentally handicapped. Yet, he proudly does everything within his power to care for himself and attend to his own business. He pays late - within 24 hours of when he gets his check on the 1st business day fo the month - but he pays. Nearly one fourth of his monthly income will go to pay for restoral of water service. (Thank goodness Commission candidate Matthews offered to pay the $100 fee for him)
Mr. Massey and accomplice did not consider that situation. They simply thought of hordes of Arkansas Citians racing down to the casinos and giving their water bill money away.
Then or now, they should ask the Commission to call together ministers, charitable org leaders and a few citizens who ARE in touch with struggling Arkansas Citians to discuss a civilized way to remedy the problem.
This and other recent predatory proposals come from the folks inside City Hall who have lost contact with the folks they serve outside City Hall.
The Motto for the City once was "Good People Serving Good People." None of the verbiage coming from Mr. Massey and his research staff person suggested they felt that they are "Serving Good People."
Public policy is founded on considering the least of these. If money was no object all would build their own road leading to their own property. WE would dig and maintain our own water supply and septic treatment. We would defend our own property adn look out for the neighbors.
The basis of "City" is coming together to share that cost. In doing so, those who can pay more for the sake of those who cannot. That is the humanitarian way. It is the way of an advanced society.
Walgreens came without a tif and without any other help. They had water nearby. That was their only infrastructure in place. Don't you remember that lot was just grass and rock and trees. They had to put in their own lights, parking lot, sidewalks, concrete, curb cuts, retaining wall, retaining wall repair, etc. You can be sick of hearing about how they did that on their own without a tif, but then I would imagine most things make you sick since you don't appear to like to hear the truth.
Feb 27, 5:13
Your memory must be short. There was a house there which means sewer, water, and any other amenity was there. So what would Walgreens asked the city foe a TIF for.
Some forgotten points on the TIF.
Lowe's would have had to pay 100% of their property taxes and sales taxes. Those monies would be used to pay for the horizontal developments of an entire shopping center. Lowe's can and probably still come in on their own, but the TIF was primarily to form a complete shopping center with a restaurant (not fast food) and a variety of other stores.
At the same time the TIF would have saved the city money on repairing and upgrading parts of Skyline and 61st roads as well as extending utilities so there could be more growth in that area.
We have since voted in a 1/2 cent sales tax increase (so much different from TIF?) so we can do some of those things without the benefit of any new retail stores or restaurants.
If there were any way to get them back here I'd be all for it, but I'm sure the razzing they got from the "majority" of the city commission will keep us from getting anything like that in the future.
But, tell the rest of the story and who would have benefitted most from the TIF.
Would it have done anything to help the old downtown?
Would it have helped to offset expenses that will be incurred in others areas of the infrastructure due to age?
Then tell us all the proposed plans for the property owned by ACI.
Wasn't there something like 5 phases to the original presentation?
I might know bits and pieces as rumor tell us the whole story!
BTW: I like the new Orscheln store they have made an honest contribution to the area!
We now get 100% of nothing.
The developer would have put in 30 million dollars into construction on unused land, would have built roads and water and sewer extensions and hundreds of jobs in the community with only a tax abatement as a concession.
Yes. TIF's are very bad. Especially if they are tools that the city leaders are too ignorant or fearful to use.
It could have improved Ark City at a very critical time. Instead Ark City shot itself in the foot.
I've got no idea what people think when they still insist that Lowe's could come in on their own.
That train has departed. That bird has flown. It is all over now except for the memory of the vision for the future that could have been.
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