I was thinking about Zach's post about bail-outs.
It does seem that we taxpayers are being asked - forced - to bail out filthy rich executives who got in trouble because of their greed. Has anything good happened to the economy as a result of any of the billions spent on bailouts so far?
nope.
The reason for the economic crisis is greed. Bad loans were made and that caused problems for the banks, and then there has been a ripple effect throughout the rest of the business world.
Theres no credit now because of all the bad loans.
People who make loans should take into consideration whether a person can pay back the loan. They made loans they knew would probably default.
Its just like some car dealers who sell people cars with no money down, no credit check, low payments for awhile, knowing that the person will never pay back the loan ... but what do they care, they still get their commission and money from the bank.
So we are telling those in charge that their stupid - greedy - behavior was ok, and we are rewarding them by keeping them afloat and even funding huge bonuses for those in charge.
So what is to stop it from happening again and again.
It reminds me of the Mayan indians in Mexico.
You know their civilization just stopped one day. All the cities were abandoned and it went from one of the most advanced civilizations in the world to nothing. By the time the Europeans arrived it was all but forgotten. The spaniards thought it all was just fairy tales. Wasnt till the 1800s that someone started investigating and found all the ancient ruins.
They did have a system of human sacrifice. The priests convinced the public that they had to have human sacrifice to keep the sun coming up.
After a few hundred years no one questioned whether it would actually come up the next day or not. This started about 300 a.d. and lasted till about 1200 a.d.
So people were asked to give family members to be sacrified. They cut their hearts out, still beating, and offered that to the gods. who kept the sun coming up each day - and of course kept the moon doing its thing as well.
No one knows what happened - why it all just stopped all of a sudden.
One theory that makes sense to me is that people finally got tired of the sacrifice.
So one day they all just said NO ... Probably happened in one city, then another, then another..
They may have even killed the priests who essentially ruled the country.
The cities were built around the temples where the sacrifices took place, so ... out of fear or whatever, they abandoned the cities.
the sun did come up the next day.
Does anyone see a parallel here.
We have to keep bailing out these companies - we have to keep funding greedy filthy rich executives - to keep the economy going.
Im not advocating killing them of course, but ... what if we did just say no.
Where is accountability?
Posts
47 comments:
Some very rambling, random thoughts...
Great parallel. Our excessive greed, consumerism, materialism will be our downfall.
Our entire society is set up so that the rich get richer at the expense of the poor. Not only the poor of our own communities, and our own country, but the poor world wide. I believe capitalism on its face is inherently evil. In order for one person to make a profit, someone else must be exploited. Inorder for me to enjoy a cheap pair of chinos, or an inexpensive cup of coffee, a textile worker in Thailand, or a plantation worker in Costa Rica must receive poor wages, no health care and live in squalor. My comfort, my riches, come at the expense of someone else. I don't see it, so what do I care.
In our own country, excessive interest rates, and late fees and the like, punish the very people that can't afford to pay, while benefiting the people that don't need it.
We pay baseball players, musicians, and actors millions and millions of dollars, while teachers need to find second jobs...
We look down at garbage men, janitors, convenience store workers and the like, but I guarentee you we could not survive without them, and many of them are working harder than I ever will...
The cheap chinos and inexpensive cup of joe is part of how we got here in the first place. Our nation has fallen into this stuper that says we must always shop cheap. This has killed American industry. Just 5 years ago my father would brag that near 50% of the goods we sell are American made. Today if I was to hold true to that statement I would have about 100 products for sale (No different than now some of you will joke). In example I bought a giant Irwin Vise Grips display and a bit display made by the same company 2 months into owning this place. When I bought it I was stupid (so what else is new- Ha beat you to the punchline again) and didn't check where they were made. I took for granted that all the bits and Vise Grips on my shelves were marked USA. When the new display came in every single package stated China. Let me tell you people they are not the same tool either. They are of poor quality compared to the ones we used to sell, if you don't believe me then ask a contractor how many phillips bits he goes through in a day. Now as we are losing jobs and making less and less each year we all are being forced to "buy for less" do to our pocketbooks. I think we need to start paying more for quality product and just buy less overall. That will pull us through this. Write your congressman and President and say that we don't want the China product we want our fellow Americans employed! Hire local contractors to do your work and keep your money in town. Be a part of the solution instead of the problem.
As for wages, car allowances, private jets, all these need to decrease. Can a man not live on a five figure salery? What would happen if every CEO in the nation took a pay cut of 50% and put that money into hiring more employees and increasing the wages of the ones working for them? I know this won't happen but it is a nice what if. What if everyone was actually created equal?
. I believe capitalism on its face is inherently evil.
>>
I dont think its the system, its us that are evil.
Its just human nature that wants to exploit other humans.
Capitalism is ok as a system,but it has weaknesses that show up when it is not kept under control. Republicans tend to want to under-control it.
Socialism is no better .. in that system allegedly everyone is equal, but history has shown that in that system there is no incentive to work because you cant get ahead.
Power goes to a few people at the top who are exploiting everyone else.
THe problem is spiritual . not the system itself
THat aught to get you going :)
ok, now we're talking. ha
Zach, on another blog you brought up a very good point. And again, on this one. CEO's and employers, both gain off the back of their employees. Yet each time they bow down and give a cost of living wage
the cost of everything else goes up.
City workers get a bit of a raise, some of them, while other city workers get the 'boot'. And yet, we add top ranking positions that 1year ago we said we could do without. I believe that's what was said when we moved SA up to CM position, after our last CM left. So our city unemployment rate goes up. Creekstone has cut hours on their employees, does anyone care. (not really, other than to complain about possible illegals working there) The people there are willing to work, yet less than 28 hours a week and we expect them to buy and spend as usual. It's a shame. (on both of these industries)
Ok, I'm thru belly achin' for now.
Anyone else, got somethin to add.
Rubbermaid, GE, .......???????
First poster...you remember sociology class very well.(Not saying that to be sarcastic!)
Zach, i agree.
James, maybe the right mix of capitalism and socialism would benifit us the most
I blame our American government all the way on this one..I remember American companies bailing out on the US, just to move overseas or Mexico to get cheaper taxes and pay cheaper wages. Incentives to US companies to stay in the US are nearly nil, but there doesn't seem to be a problem with offering large foreign companies all kinds of tax breaks to bring them here. While I don't have a problem with buying some foreign goods, I think we should pay more for an import over something American made.
Is it worth it? Not in my book, if you can't take care of your own. Seems kind of like thumbing your nose and sticking out your tongue at your own people.
Even a 5% paycut on
CEOS would make one heck of a difference!
"In order for one person to make a profit, someone else must be exploited."
Not really, profit must happen in order to keep the doors open. It just can't be extortion and robbery. Ideally, prices should go down as technology gets better, people find better ways to make the same product cheaper, etc. Why then do the prices go up? GREED.
jj, you are right, socialism is not the answer either. If it was, then Cuba would be an oasis and the U.S.S.R. would still be alive and Red China would be where all the immigrants would be trying to sneak into.
America!!! We are the home of the free, and land of the brave. I'm a true patriot. Hey, it ain't perfect. Let's put our heads together and figure it out.
Most importantly as jj stated, the problem is us. We must be the first to pray, the first to ask God to help us. I think we've just about whittled our way down to prayer
D.Q.
as a friend of mine said.
we don't need reform
we need repentance
A big AMEN to that jj
Oops. Got the words to the song backwards.
________
D.Q.
While prayer and faith are good guys remember, God helps those that help themselves. We do need to be a nation of faith but not in the way that we pray for a salvation to save us all. We need to have faith in our nation, faith in our people and very importantly faith in ourselves. Believe that you can make a difference then put that belief into action. To just pray and accept the status quo then I fear those prayers say that you aren't prepared to put forth the effort to bring change. I believe in America and I believe in Ark City, it's just time we all start believing in ourselves.
sounds good to me :)
Our entire society is set up so that the rich get richer at the expense of the poor. Not only the poor of our own communities, and our own country, but the poor world wide.
.....................
Capitalism has done more to help people escape poverty than any other form of government. There are millions and millions of Chineese who are hoping for a chance at a better life than their parents. That is why they work so hard and under substandard conditions.
The real problem isn't Capitalism as you want to portray it. It is the fact that the retailers have gotten so good and large that they dictate the competition! In the process they determine what is made and bought!
I had a realtive who was a blacksmith. He was dead before I was born but his trade was no longer needed by my generation.
The real problem is that we stopped progressing - finding the new that would replace the old.
We just want to keep improving on the same things!
Yet we have new technology which would make a lot of the older technology answers obsolete.
But to change would upset the whole existing network and raise prices - When our present goal has been to streamline or mass produce, mass retail to reduce prices.
The other area that we have failed is trying to keep things the same regarding labor.
Groups like unions even the AARP and others want to keep things the same or dictate how they get done! Even large group retirment funds like KPERS. They want to promote things specifically geared for their group. Often at the expense of government (you and me).
I can recall when the benefits package (health insurance etc.)
wasn't that big of a priority in pusueing a job. It was common! Now those jobs a premium and sought by all.
The fact that we all want to purchase or do the same things the same way at the same time from the same places and to keep as much as possibe the same is the problem!
So in the end we place ourselves in direct competition for the old or known answers/ideas/products.
But, even worse those who have seen the promise of capitalism and embraced it are or will soon surpass us!
I don't mean to insult here but are you trying to say we should all bow to the mighty dollar? We should give up and join in climbing on the backs of our nation to see who can make the most money? If I am misinterpruting this I am sorry and please correct me. If I am not then I strongly disagree.
Well there Rabbit! Lets say you have been conditioned!
Ex. I want all those who stood in the block long line every Saturday morning in front of the Painted Pony. When the new edition of the Beenie Babies arrived for sale to hold up your hands!
I thought so!
I never did. Nor did I own the painted pony.
@ 1:36
I agree with some of what you are saying. We do need to look forward. Technology and creative thinking is crucial for advancement. A lot of those principles could be applied locally and make an impact on higher government.
Zach, those Irwin tools are made by Newell Rubbermaid. Newell's CEO at the time announced a few years back a 10 year plan to move the company (piece by piece) to China. They do this to avoid the US corporate tax and to indulge in cheap slave-like labor. As for the quality? Of course they want to cut costs and raise profit margins for their stock holders. Another angle on this is Wal-Mart. They consume 70% of Newell's products. Also, they dictate the price. Every year, they demand that Newell cut the costs of their products so that THEY can show bigger profits for THEIR stock holders. Newell does this by reducing quality of materials used and reducing labor or benefits (moving to China). Now, the other 30% of their product is not produced with a higher grade of material. Why would they do that? Thus, stores like Bryant's Hardware end up with the same crap that Wally World demands.
Speaking of hiring local- I am doing remodeling on my home- who are LOCAL contractors who remodel?
Beanie babies? Only pretentious morons invested in all those stupid stuffed animals!!
Hey Zach- I'm impressed with your knowledge of Rubbermaid and also with Wal-marts tactics. Few people realize how Wal-mart takes advantage of American companies. It is true they dictate price and prevent companies from profit, they also buy substandard products imported from Mexico and China. Parents should educate themselves on the dangers of toys produced in China- if they did they would quit buying so much from Wal-mart. I myself have quit buying their mexican vegetables and produce. We have local farmers who produce much better/fresher items, and the price isn't more expensive either. Wal-mart is losing its ability to say it has the lowest price, of course they don't have to as more people shop them and let them rise like a dictatorship. While I am guilty of buying some items at Walmart I am very aware that they are hugely responsible for exportation of jobs and importation of foriegn made products rather than American made. The American companies they do use they are slowly pushing out of business with their demands. Not all of those demands equivilate to lower prices- more like higher CEO compensation.
its too late you pasifist have already sold America out
Honestly all it takes in order to learn is to research the topics. Heck if something is brought up I know nothing about then I google it and read articles so I can expand my mind. Th anonymous statement is true we have sold our nation out but that does not mean it is too late for change. Honestly it is kind of funny hearing an anonymous call everyone else a pacifist seeing as they don't want their name in the debate. There are many good strong American companys left we all just need to ask ourselves if we want to continue this current trend of shutting them down or do we actually want to make a difference. Buy a CaseXX pocket knife instead of the Buck or Schrade that has gone over seas, go to Country Mart and buy meat that comes from the packing house supporting so many in our town, next time you buy a car go American, buy USA pipe and pipe fittings instead of the cheaper import scrap (that they buy off us and then sell back to us), support local business and look at the labels to see where the products are made, if nothing is made in USA then ask the owners or managers if they can get the home grown products. It all starts with each and every one of us and until we all start pushing for change then I promise you things are only going to get worse. Heck if even one person takes anything I say here to heart and starts doing a few of these things then we are headed in the right direction. What's so wrong with wanting a nation we can take pride in?
Lot of those companies overseas exploiting the poor are american owned companies.
Interestingly enough, my toyota was made in the USA.
I used to have a ford that was made in Canada.
hmmmmm
Dead Rabbit said...
While prayer and faith are good guys remember, God helps those that help themselves.
___________________________
Actually, I believe God helps those who can't help themselves....
Capitalism has done more to help people escape poverty than any other form of government. There are millions and millions of Chineese who are hoping for a chance at a better life than their parents. That is why they work so hard and under substandard conditions.
___________________________
Actually, I believe Democracy has done more to help than anything else.
So has government money poured into programs like the space race, and the Manhatten project. I still stand by what I said. Capitalism is inherently evil. If there is not an equal exchange of goods or services, then someone has been exploited...
Yes JJ, I do agree, it is a spiritual problem. It is a heart condition. Capitalism is fueled by greed.
None of us think we have enough. All of us store up for ourselves for what if...
We can't take it with us...
I believe it is sin for me to have more than I need, when my brother does not have enough...
I believe it is sin for me to have more than I need, when my brother does not have enough...
>
The writers of the bible would agree with that. :)
It a Ben Franklin quote and here's what I think it means. Apart from salvation, there is perhaps a way that the concept "God helps those who help themselves" is correct. As an example, if you asked me to help you move a piece of furniture, but then just watched me as I moved the furniture for you, I was not actually helping you. I would be doing the work for you. Many Christians fall into the trap of inactivity. Many Christians ask God for help, but then expect God to do everything Himself. They excuse this by pointing to the fact that God will provide according to His will and in His timing. However, this is not a reason for inactivity. As a specific example, if you are in need of a job, ask the Lord to help you find a job - but then be active in actually looking for a job. While it is in His power to do so, it is highly unlikely that God will cause employers to come looking for you! So what I'm saying is that while asking him for help is great it should be just that, help. Without action from ourselves we can't pretend that God will do it for us. Someone must take the actions so that God's graces can "help" them along.
Reminds me of a story:
A man lived in an area that had a really bad flood. He had to up to the roof of his house and sit because the flood was so deep.
A boat came by, and offered him a ride.
He said, No thanks, The LORD is going to take care of me.
A little later a bigger boat came by and offered him a ride. Again, he said, No thanks, the LORD is going to take care of me.
Then, a helicopter came and threw a rope down to him. Again, he refused. saying the LORD was going to rescue him.
So the flood kept rising and he drowned.
After he died, he went to heaven
he saw the LORD.
and asked him ... Lord, I thought you were going to take care of me. What happened.
The LORD shook his head and said
Son i sent two boats and a helicopter to get you.
:)
Still, im not totally comfortable with the idea of God helping those who help themselves. but there is some truth to it.
We do have to do our part.
Maybe a revised way of saying it would be God gives us the strength to help ourselves. Like that better? I don't think it's a quote so I copywrite it- joking
Capitalism is inherently evil. If there is not an equal exchange of goods or services, then someone has been exploited...
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China isn't a democracy and they are still embracing Capitalism.
There were alot of things we have today as the result of the Space Race and other similar projects.
You can't have a equal balance of trade with developing countries.
We should be discarding some of the things that we are outsourcing for better and newer instead of cheaper.
We are the country with the capability to change - that can do the research and develope the technology. We just don't have the will and would rather hold on to the present.
Here is a good quote i stole off the comment section of a story about Circuit City shutting down.
Pretty soon, the only place you will be able to buy Chinese junk is the original Chinese Junk Store -- Walmart.
@ 5:43
I don't know but I am possibly looking for someone too. I wish I could find someone to refinish hardwood floors!
Ok for remodeling give me a call at Bryant's tomorow and I will give you some names from my advertising board in back. 442-0030. I also know that Wood's Lumber keeps a great list of local guys 442-4760
@ dead rabbit
Thanks!
China isn't a democracy and they are still embracing Capitalism.
___________________________
Are you saying China is a decent, moral country? Or that no one is being exploited?
Capitalism has done more to help people escape poverty than any other form of government.
___________________________
Tell that to the 2000+ people living below the poverty level here in Ark City. Tell that to nearly half of the world's population (nearly 3 billion people,)who live on less than 2.00 per day.
Tell that to the Wealthy 20% of the worlds population who consume 80%of the worlds natural resources...
"China isn't a democracy and they are still embracing Capitalism."
Completely wrong.
When we import a product from China we are not getting a product from a private business, we are buying very directly from the government of China.
BD, I can help you with your wood floors. deerhuntersdiary@gmail.com
Completely wrong.
When we import a product from China we are not getting a product from a private business, we are buying very directly from the government of China.
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Well it probably depends on who you read or listen to about China.
Oh yeah and there are people right here in Cowley County that have been there and do business
with the Asians.
But, they are actively bidding for exclusive rights and buying companies that provide oil and metals and other commodities
world wide.
The Government of China does basically back and own the businesses. But they also protect them from the failure in some cases. Ex. product recalls.
Again, depending on what you choose to believe the Economy of the State of California is on a similar scale and probably larger than of alot of those newer emerging/developing countries.
Lastly, tell me the story of the Boston Tea Party or about slaves used for tobacco production.
Then tell me about the drug warlords or countries ruled by Governments that destroy any opposition and even other ethnic or religous groups!
There is no inherent good in mankind like your preacher tells you it is by choice and the love of God and its called by goodness and grace!
Capitalism may produces tremendous wealth, but it fails to distribute that wealth equitably. It favors the wealthy and those in power, while neglecting the poor. and it corrupts the rich. It corrupts the rich, and it exploits the poor.
___________________________
Acts 2:44-45 gives us a blueprint of how it should work. "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." ___________________________
Doesn't sound like capitalism to me...
Acts 2:44-45 gives us a blueprint of how it should work. "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." ___________________________
Doesn't sound like capitalism to me...
>>>>>
I love a biblical discussion :)
Yes, the early Christians seemed to practice socialism.
And it worked.
It worked because they all believed in God, and shared a common sense of morality and love for each other.
It works great in relatively small groups
but when it gets big, and people dont believe in God, and dont have that sense of love for their fellow man,
it goes bad real quick
just like capitalism does.
Its not the system that matters.
its the heart of men (and women) that matters.
Well then interpret the following for me:
Luke 19:11-27
The Parable of the King's Ten Servants
Why was the King so hard on the servant that hid his mina?
Well then interpret the following for me:
Luke 19:11-27
The Parable of the King's Ten Servants
Why was the King so hard on the servant that hid his mina?
>>
Touche
He was hard on him because he did not use his talent, his god given ability. the stuff God had given him, for good
The problem is, in both cases, the writer of scripture is not advocating or endorsing any type of government.
That is not the point in either passage.
The scriptures do not endorse a financial system, government system or political party...
We can pick out verses that seem to back our side, but just as this poster did, other people can grab verses that seem to support their side.
In the argument between capitalism and socialism ... the scriptures do not take sides if you take all of the scripture as a whole into consideration.
as I said earlier, its not the system :)
Thanks DHD I will email you later!
We can pick out verses that seem to back our side, but just as this poster did, other people can grab verses that seem to support their side.
In the argument between capitalism and socialism ... the scriptures do not take sides if you take all of the scripture as a whole into consideration.
as I said earlier, its not the system :)
___________________________
Yes, proof texting is a dangerous thing. My point is, the early Christian Church certainly looked more like Socialism than Capitalism.
Also, I dont think there is anything in Acts 2:44-45that is to be taken figuratively. We are called to care for the least of these.
Luke 19:11-27 however is meant to be taken figuratively, or metaphorically. It is a parable...
I agree with your point.
Just saying that the point of those verses is not to endorse a system of finance.
But in its purest form, socialism is probably closer to being biblical than capitalism . The problem is, both are run by people who are not moral, so it doesnt work.
There are whole denominations formed on the basis of how things were done in the book of Acts.
I dont think that just because they did something a certain way, that means we should do the same.
They all went outside to go to the bathroom. Doesnt mean we have to.
:)
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