There was some talk earlier about pro-life, pro-choice issues.
(Does it seem unfair to anyone else that the national media calls one side PRO choice and the other side ANTI abortion?)
I lean toward life. Life is holy and something that should not be destroyed... That said ..
Here are my main criticisms of both sides:
it has become much too political.
The pro-choice argument has one main flaw, and that is that it does not recognize the morality of the issue.
The pro life people perhaps do not have as strong of footing a they might think as far as when life begins.
I do object though, to what I see as the tactics of many in the pro choice movement to silence their opponents. The Freedom of Choice Act, was one example, which would outlaw the requirement that a woman see pictures from a sonogram of the fetus in her body. Well the reason for that is obvious, if she sees it, she will realize it is a living being and might back out.
Remember, the pro abortion folks are making a lot of money on this. its not really about choice, its about making money.
The pro life people are too extreme by not allowing exceptions, and some dont even allow contraception. They put girls in a double bind ... no birth control and no abortion .. and just tell them to say no. They need a reality check too.
But moving on from that.
it is not a black and white issue. I think that is the problem. Both sides want it to be that way.
And I see that as an even greater problem. There's too much money and too many political points to be made by both sides to actually resolve the issue. It could be resolved.
Get 10 people from each side, shut them up in a room and don't let them out until they come to a consensus.
I get weary of the examples by both sides of extremes. A 12 year old who was raped for one, but a the same time, what about the socialite teen who gets pregnant and has an abortion and doesnt even miss a party.
Both are extremes that don't happen much. I tend to dismiss those arguments because of that.
Camping out there will never solve the issue.
We are so hung up in our culture on even offending someone's sensibilities ... but we dont care about killing babies..
But at the same time, there is a point when it is not a baby ...
and it is hard on the mother.
There are agencies that will help though, and adopt.. so there really isnt much of an excuse except in extreme cases.
Both sides try to use the bible to back up their claims. Of course, the first lesson of proper biblical interpretation, is not to "proof text," which means to take a sentence or a phrase out of context and try to prove a point that way.
Here is an example ...
Judas went and hanged himself
Go ye therefore and do likewise
What thou do, do quickly.
That is a biblical statement ... out of context. but .. theres no arguing that this is what the bible says, go hang yourself and do it quickly.... thats how manipulative people work.
The scritpures are not as clear as either side would like on this issue.
A verse the pro life crowd likes is
Psa 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Ok, context is thing. This is a poem about the greatness of God. It is not talking about life issues. And being a poem, it uses metaphors a lot, flowery language. not meant to be taken "literally" at all. Another psalm talks about God's mighty right arm ... well God doesnt have an arm. and wouldnt have to use an arm anyway .. he speaks worlds into existance just by thinking .. let there be ....so ... this verse is not teaching when life begins.
Another verse not used by the pro life crowd
Gen 2:7 the Lord God formed the man [fn] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Again, it is not about when life begins, but ... doesnt it seem to imply that life begins with breath?
Here is one that is interesting.
Exd 21:22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [fn] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
Exd 21:23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
So, is this verse talking about both the mother and her baby. or just the mother?
So, ive written all this and you can tell ... I dont know the answer.
What I do know is that both sides are making political hay out of it and people are suffereing as a result on both sides of the issue.
Posts
49 comments:
Well to carry over the reasoning
from the prior blog entry.
Is it killing a fetus or murdering a baby?
Was it conceived in sin or in love?
Sin promotes sin and love promotes love.
But, when chosen love always trumps sin. It is a promise!
The major word there I think is morals. What are America's morals? What seems ok to one may not be to another. The Bible is a great example of this. To some it is a moral compass to others it is the next book in the Hobbit series. I mean no offense to either side but who is to say which is right?
who is to say which is right?
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I think that is a major fallacy in our culture.
Really, its the same as it has always been.
Society reaches a consensus on what is right and wrong .. based on something ... the bible . logic. .. reason .. something.
We have lost that in our culture.
maybe its really not wrong to steal . what if i come steal your car and say ... who are you to say this is wrong?
how would you answer that ?
This isn't out of anger but my honest response would be that maybe it is alright for me to shoot you as you do? See I know that there are laws set for a reason but I'm honestly tired of the country that is supposed to be for all being based on the Bible. As you pointed out the interpertation can go many ways on the Bible and it means many things to many people. I too use it as a moral compass but what I'm saying is what about those that don't? To some a fetus is a life to others it is not and that is what makes this debate interesting. I try to abstain from it due to the fact that I haven't ever been in a womans shoes to know how that decision feels. I'm just a believer that there is no right or wrong answer in this one.
My morals come from my own inner sense of right and wrong, not from any book. If I were to use the bible as a manual, I would have to stone my son to death if he were to become rebellious or backtalk me.
I'm just a believer that there is no right or wrong answer in this one.
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I think there is ... im just not sure where it is.
I dont think either side is there yet :)
What i was hoping for Zach, was to talk about how right and wrong are determined ..
i think its a interesting topic
but one that is deep as well.
If I were to use the bible as a manual, I would have to stone my son to death
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nope, not true.
thats a good example of taking things out of context.
If we are speaking of abortion then it is up to the woman to decide for herself what is right. Those of you who say you are anti-abortion unless the woman was raped or the mothers life is in danger are pro-abortion; You just attach a moral litmus test but I ask you to dig deeper.
I don't think it's moral to call a woman who has had an abortion a whore or a baby killer or to assume that those who are pro-choice are those things either. I think it's incredibly sexist to place all the blame on the woman when the outcome is an abortion. Why are people on this blog not showing outrage at the nameless, faceless sperm donors who are not willingly to step up and take care of their responsibilities? Why are people not calling those men whores or baby killers? You can call a woman a whore but she didn't get there by herself. This attitude has to stop.
Reforming health care and education specifically where it relates to sexuality would be a major contribution to lowering abortion rates. Insurance should cover birth control, the morning after pill and it should be available to anyone who needs it regardless of the employees "right of conscientious". Sex education should include abstinence teachings and fail safe sexual responsibility.
We have to also reform our culture and the way society targets and rewards sexuality in young women. Young girls today are taught indirectly that their bodies are commodities and will get them further in life then their brains. Young women are not being taught that this is in direct opposition of feminism. We need to rally around our young girls, raise their self esteem and their expectations for themselves. We also need to change the attitudes of our young men.
Additionally, I think we should reform child support laws specifically in cases where deadbeat parents are concerned. I think it is disgusting that we allow absentee parents, who only pay a couple hundred dollars a month, full tax benefits and offer no cost of living increase in child support payments. We have enforced an environment that says its okay to father many children, with many women and there is no penalty because you do not have to RAISE them. Where is the outrage in that?
Finally I want to say that a majority of pro-choice advocates are so because we believe this is a woman's right issue. I would like to prevent as many abortions as possible but we cannot ignore the cause and just focus on the effect - it's not productive. It's an accumulated issue and deserves more attention then a yearly protest at city hall.
BD what of the woman that wants to abort and either won't listen to the man or never tells him? What if the man wants the child and she does not then who does the court side with?
And JJ we can still debate what is right and what is wrong I know it is deep. Do you think taking a life over stolen goods is right or wrong?
DEUTERONOMY 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
e men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: s
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Youre taking it out of context
it does say that yes, but ... you need to understand the whole book, and look at it in light of that
And JJ we can still debate what is right and what is wrong I know it is deep. Do you think taking a life over stolen goods is right or wrong?
>>>
The deeper question is why it would be right or wrong.
Who decides? and why?
What the Bible says about Abortion
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23
The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6
Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16
God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16
God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14
God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28
God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
-- Genesis 38:24
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I can't believe that people can read this crap and take it seriously. The bible is so full of contradictions, and just flat out absurdity, that I have trouble believing that anyone over the age of ten believes it is real.
I would never kill a person over simple property theft, but if a person has broken into my house in the middle of the night, how am I going to know what his intentions are? Should I ask him? It all depends on the situation and circumstances. Read the Joe Horn case from Texas. It should be on wikipedia.
BTW, god also condones slavery in the bible. Does that mean we should own slaves?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_sb2fSRByI
Penn & Teller say it better than I can.
Society sets the rules but not always are the rules of society just. If one feels that injustice has become law then it is their duty to speak out against it but at the same time they have the choice of following the injustice or reaping the punishment put in place by society for rejecting the implemented laws. I.E. many think marijana should be legal, society deams it not to be. Speaking out against the law is still legal but to actually smoke the substance may wind up putting you in jail.
BTW, god also condones slavery in the bible. Does that mean we should own slaves?
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Not true.
the bible only sees it as a reality, it does not approve of it.
most of the bible stuff so far is so out of context, we are not even close to reality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tgdQM9MO5s&feature=related
I used to consider myself a Christian until I started studying the bible.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe just because you are going to be a single mother means you have to have an abortion. I had my son at 17, he is now 19 and he is the best thing that ever happened to me. His biological father never did help me and I didn't whine around about it. I took care of us and I never needed welfare to do it either. Abortion should not be about convenience. Anyone with a concious would know that. I guess right and wrong comes easy to me.
It's kind of the whole sayings of two wrongs don't make a right and don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. No shooting someone for stolen propery doesn't make a right but neither does judging someone for an abortion. Both can be viewed as wrongs in both cases. I myself have never been faced with a pregnancy or all that comes along with it other than I am the father of a great little boy. It's very hard for me to say what I would do if I were in the situation having never been there. Once again right and wrong are all in the eyes of the beholder. I believe that even with most of the worst crimes ever the person who commited the crime thought what they were doing was ok. That doesn't make what they did ok but it does show that morals aren't instilled they are gained through living life.
I don't have to be a woman to know that I would never approve of aborting a child unless there was a danger to the mother, birth defects, etc. Simply for convenience? Never.
As for the statements made on the bible, Yes I agree the old testemant does have stories of what seems to be cruel. However if you study the Bible, you will see that God is a forgiving God. Read the new testemant and it will show you that God sent his only Son that through him we might be saved. I know that I cannot push anything on you that you do not want to believe, and I won't. I am not here to point fingers and call you all sinners, because Jesus would not do that. However I do my best to on a daily basis show the love of God through my actions. And thats why I am here I guess. The only thing I ask is that beofre you start ripping the Bible, take the time read, study and understand all of it. Not just parts that you want to. The Bible is meant to be read and understood as a whole not in pieces. As a Christian I cannot pick and choose the parts I want to live by, but I live by faith and faith in the Word of God. Not luke warm. Be Hot for God or Cold. Agian, If you choose not to live a Christian life I cannot make you, but I will show you the love of God in all I do.
Society reaches a consensus on what is right and wrong .. based on something ... the bible . logic. .. reason .. something.
We have lost that in our culture.
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Good Point!
I think that society has seen a massive change in technology in recent years that presents us with reasons to question some of the old beliefs.
We can medically end or extend life but then are faced with moral or Quality of Life issues. Hospitals form panels to review what constitutes withholding treatment. Hospice is recommended in terminal cases. (While they provide relief from suffering it borders on Euthanasia.)
Then with the modern media and entertainment where fantasy becomes reality or the limits are pushed on morality in the name of ratings or sales. The fact that we are still basically the same creatures as in Biblical times is just to hard to accept.
I think its interesting to read these blogs and the difference in the way people see the same item or idea.
It does show how out of touch the religious leadership is with the modern youth! Could that be because there are too many other competing options, there are no young leaders to carry on the cause or the leadership is too comfortable in their positions?
Why in the hell did you remove my post about working on the sabbath? There was nothing vulgar in it. Truth hurt?
You only let comments through that you have a readily scripted answer for?
Your censorship really pisses me off. Don't hide behind freedom of speech and then censor others that you don't agree with.
Maybe religion needs a bit of a revamp to appeal to todays youth a little better. A lot of kids just need someone to talk to that won't try to cram their beliefs down their throats or jump all over them. Just what I've seen anyways.
Why in the hell did you remove my post about working on the sabbath? There was nothing vulgar in it. Truth hurt?
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You called religion "pooh"
thats pretty bad, not allowing that.
Repost it without that.
I need to delete more posts. Ive let too many things - bad jokes - bad words - slip through.
By now you know i allow stuff i dont agree with if its done in good taste.
Of course, im the judge of what is good taste on here.
Zach
I think you have a good point.
But any religion teaches people its beliefs. Thats just the nature of it.
I dont see that as forcing it on them.
They do not have to hear it, accept it, or even come to the place where the religion is being done.
But I think you do have a good point about "revamping."
The message must not change.
Jesus Christ dead and raised again for remission of sins.
That is what Christianity is, the rest is commentary as they say.
We do need to appeal to peoples taste as long as we don't compromise the message.
Like having a youth service with youth music and youth related topics, instead of having them sit through a boring service with the adults. Of course, the adults may like the boring service, so you have to keep that.
I do agree that religion needs to do a better job of reaching out to people.
The traditional churches and denominations are fading - theyre doing things the way they did 100 years ago. Especially the more liberal ones. Lutherans, episcopalians, presbyterian etc.,
but the non denominational and charismatic places are growing fast. They are better responding to peoples needs.
It does show how out of touch the religious leadership is with the modern youth! Could that be because there are too many other competing options,
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Great post, with great questions.
You know im always taking up for Ark City, but im going to make an exception.
In larger cities the churches do a better job with modern youth.
Most churches have people trained to do that very thing. They have a full time youth pastor who does only that.
Part of it is having other options, but strangely, in larger cities the churches are more competitive with "other" things.
Even good other things.
But even in saying that, there are lots of fine upstanding Christian youth in Arkansas City.. who love their neighbors as themselves.
Lots of times its only the bad kids or the athletes that get attention. That is partially our fault in the media.
Im not really convinced that there are fewer good - religious - kids now than there were at any other time, by percentage.
There may even be more now, because now you have fewer kids going to church because they have to. Most now are there because they want to be.
"You called religion "pooh"
thats pretty bad, not allowing that."
OMFG, are you serious? You actually censored the word "Poo"!
How grown up of you.
Twain had much to say about religion. Much of it worse than 'pooh.' Do you propose we pull Twain from the city library?
He is censoring his own blog meaning it really isn't censorship it is removing that which he finds distastefull. They do the same on almost every other web site I've seen. Myspace, Facebook, the Times, etc. Don't like it start your own blog. It's easy enough it took me about ten minutes to set one up.
Maybe we have different definitions of "poo" ?
I do have a responsibility to keep this thing relatively clean, so as to not offend other readers.
I have no such responsibility at the library, so I have no comment or concern about any book there.
You offend me every time you talk about how great your god is. Doesn't stop you though. Seems unfair that you only worry about offending the people on your side.
Well here is my point!
I'll use a real world example and keep to the back pages of your blog to not interupt the other subjects.
I was recently told by someone that their spouse had stopped talking to a relative. It was over the loss of a pet. Which was really a family member to them.
It was over the fact that the relative told them that animals don't go to heaven!
Now you can tell someone to read the bible when they are faced with questions or you can tell them what and why you believe it and yes sometimes it still comes down to faith.
I'll go a little futher while not knowing the details - but what if someones reasoning is that we evolved from animals so it only makes sense that animals will be in heaven the same as humans.
Do you see the confusion that causes - why do you believe what you believe - why should I believe the same!
BTW I don't believe that animals can hold the same place in heaven as humans. If they are in heaven at all! But I do think they have a special purpose on earth. They were not the same as humans on earth. They did not have the choice of right or wrong and don't have souls.
I have to wonder if many know why they believe or if they do because someone else told them without an explanation. I wonder if the relative took the time to explain that or if they even knew.
Even worse when I here what some of the clergy say - I don't know if they know!
What say you JJ?
have to wonder if many know why they believe or if they do because someone else told them without an explanation.
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A lot of people do believe what they have been told or taught without question, or they just go with what they feel.
It depends on how deep you want to go.
I have studied a lot. A lot in certain areas, and other areas not so much.
Example, I really have no firm beliefs on end times ... the bible is very vague on that so ive just decided that I am not going to go to the effort to try to figure it out.
It is complicated, and really. I believe God is in control, and whatever is going to happen is going to happen. whether i have it figured out or not. I really think it will be obvious when whatever happens happens. So i dont feel the need to spend a lot of time studying it.
So on that subject, i dont know ... i dont have any strong beliefs.
But other areas I have studied and have firm beliefs based on evidence, ancient writings, philosophy, reason, what other experts have said over the centuries and so forth.
I can make a really good case for my beliefs.
but even in saying that. I think some people are too hung up on what other people think or believe.
In theological circles there is Calvinism and Armenianism , i lean toward Calvinistic theology, but i don't mind other people going the other way. I have studied both a lot, and understand both fairly well. But I just don't "need" to convince people to go to my way of thinking on that. Why do we human beings feel that need sometimes?
On the animals thing.
I think people should take into consideration the situation of the other person.
How mean is it to tell someone who lost a pet that you really dont think their pet could go to heaven. Especially if they are emotional and hanging on to that idea.
Even if youre pretty sure it wont, I still think in that situation, its kinda insensitive to lay that on them.
Better to say nothing.
We should study, and have reasons for what we believe.
But I dont think we need to "win" the debate. Regardless of what the debate is.
The honest intellectual pursuit of a sound theology is fascinating really.
And there are issues and questions where I have no clue to the answer. But ... maybe someday.
"I have to wonder if many know why they believe or if they do because someone else told them without an explanation."
Okay, I promise not to say "poo".
Here is a good place to start looking at your faith:
Ask yourself "Why do I believe the way I do?" JJ says that he believes the way he does because he has studied the bible. I have no doubt that he has studied it a lot, and knows a lot about it. But, which bible? I'm willing to bet that it is the bible he was started on as a youngster by his parents or other role models or friends. I'm willing to bet, since he lived in the South that it was the king james version of the holy bible. For this illustration, it doesn't really matter.
Here is the point: What if he'd been born to Muslim parents in the Middle East? He would likely have studied the Quran, or something else far removed from the King James bible.
We are a product of our environment, in that we are taught what our parents learned from their parents, who learned it from their parents, and so on.
So, if THIS religion is right, and THAT one wrong, and only the right one will get you into heaven, will you go to hell if your religion is the wrong one, even though you fully believe those teaching you, and follow the scriptures of that religion?
Would a loving god send people to hell for following the wrong religion, by no fault of their own? That is what the bible says. Do you think those terrorists who flew into the twin towers are in heaven right now? Their religion says they are. They obviously believed they would be. Their faith in their religion was probably far stronger than most in this town, evidenced by the lengths they went to to bring about god's will.
Will faith in your religion get you into heaven, even if it isn't the RIGHT religion? What about those people throughout history who prayed to Zeus, or the sun gods, or any number of gods throughout time? Are they all burning in hell even though christianity and the idea of the christian god had not been invented (yes, invented) yet? Is that fair? Is any god who would act so unfairly something you'd want to worship?
How about a god who COULD stop the three hundred thousand or so children from dying of hunger every day on this earth, but does NOTHING? Is THAT the kind of god worthy of praise? A jealous god who demands that you sing his praises while he is letting innocent children die?
Do you really think there is such a being as cruel as that? If so, why would you worship that?
BTW, Po is my favorite teletubby
How about a god who COULD stop the three hundred thousand or so children from dying of hunger every day on this earth, but does NOTHING? Is THAT the kind of god worthy of praise?
>>>>
Well that is a more reasonable post.
What does poo mean to you ?
Maybe we mean different things by it.
To me it means manure at best.
But, to your point i copied above.
The reason starving children are dying is that people are not taking care of them . God has done something about that. He has put us here that have plenty, to take care of them.
We have free will. Which is not always good.
We can mistreat each other, kill each other, create economic policies that kill people, God lets us do that because he has given us a free will.
We will answer for not taking care of them.
The other point, about being a product of your environment.
Yea, i started out with the KJV and ended up rejecting christianity for many years because of that at least in part.
(KJV is a good and accurate translation, its just that it is in Elizabethan English and not in Modern American, so its hard)
Environment is important, but it is not the only factor.
People do go out of their environment at times. Especially now with the internet, you can go outside your culture pretty easily and examine thingsl.
I disagree with many christians on this point, so I hope I dont get crucified.
But my belief is not based on just opinion, but on study.
God seeks the heart.
If someone is truly seeking God, God will accept them, I believe, even if they are wrong.
There are muslims, buddhists, hindus etc., who have sincerely sought God, when they get to the judgement, He will tell them about Jesus.
Maybe they will then get the opportunity to accept Jesus.
(ok, if its buddah, ill say im sorry :) )
I dont think all are right. I think that trivializes all of them
But I do think God is just.
There is a big difference in classical christianity though. The basic premise is different. That changes the debate.
Remember in Jesus' day, the pharisees were convinced that no one else but them could be saved. Jesus found a way:)
Ive been fortunate, blessed to have studied the original languages- greek - under one of the top greek professors in the USA.
In Greek 3 our text was the final draft of a textbook he was writing that is used worldwide.
So that was a great blessing.
That doesnt make be any more spiritual or anything, just that .. i at least have a pretty strong background and foundation in what the original scriptures said.
Study really is the key.
I really was amazed when I went to grad school at age 40 - to study theology at the graduate level. I got a masters in Christian Education. But ... i saw first hand the evidence.
It was overwhelming.
Ill admit I already believed, but it was just more solidified when I saw how reasonable the entirity of scripture is, and the evidence for its authenticity.
Do you know a fragment of the gospel of john has been found from before 100 a.d., It was probably written in 80-85 a.d., so that might be like a second or third hand copy.
The amazing thing is, it is not different at all from texts copied 1000 years, or 1600 years later.
If you studied the preservation of the texts, you would have to admit that it is amazing.
Do you really think there is such a being as cruel as that? If so, why would you worship that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually there is and it is mankind!
The question is - Why would a loving God with legions of Angels choose to not intervene?
God has intervened.
Look around the net and see all the billions of dollars and millions of christians out their working their halos off to try to help.
Its just that bad people with more guns and even more money, are trying harder.
Also, I am critical of religion at times myself, especially on this issue.
But if god has the power to do anything, why are the bad guys winning, the children dying, innocent, god-loving people dying horrendous deaths at the hands of sexual predators or disease, or weather, etc. and he does NOTHING?
Because he doesn't exist.
It is amazing that scriptures have survived for so long, but no more amazing than the pyramids, or the great wall of China, or many wonders of the natural world, but that doesn't prove anything supernatural. I could convince lots of people that I have fairies in my garden, but that wouldn't make it true.
You didn't answer my question about all the people who died before christianity. Are they all in hell? What happened to them when they died?
Why is it that so many people can so easily believe in a supernatural being who lives in the clouds and watches over us, or that a man lived in a whale's belly for three days, or that Noah fit ten million species of animals on the same boat, or talking snakes (!), yet would never believe a thing like telekinesis in this modern world unless they saw it for themselves? Is it because they were indoctrinated at a young age, or because so many of their peers believe the same way? Is it the ultimate peer pressure? I think so. Think of how strongly we all believed in Santa Claus until our friends told us it was mom and dad.
You didn't answer my question about all the people who died before christianity. Are they all in hell? What happened to them when they died?
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You didnt ask that one before.
You realize that all your questions and objections are the same old ones. Try to think deeper.
But
The answer is real easy.
Faith has always been the key. People before JEsus looked to the coming messiah. People after jesus looked back to the messiah. Theres really no difference.
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ndoctrinated at a young age, or because so many of their peers believe the same way? Is it the ultimate peer pressure?
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Could be that we met God.
I believe in my wife because ive met her and know her.
not any different with God really.
:)
Think of how strongly we all believed in Santa Claus until our friends told us it was mom and dad.
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I think our version of Santa Claus was really an adaptation of a different version. Modified to fit our society.
But, be careful about trying to disprove God. You just might find him in the process. I hope you do!
So what you are saying is that you've met god?
You should email Richard Dawkins with that info. He'd love to be proved wrong. Cc to Christopher Hitchens as well.
What in the world are you doing here in Ark City when you should be out telling the world about meeting god? There are lots of people teetering on the edge of belief, just looking for proof that god exists.. you should be out there giving them that proof. Don't you think that's what god would want? You could make the talk show circuit.
you should be out there giving them that proof. Don't you think that's what god would want? You could make the talk show circuit.
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Yup
Thats what Im saying. I could tell you about dreams, but you might just make fun of it.
But my experience is not very unique.
Millions and millions of people around the world have had the exact same experiences over thousands of years.
And they are out there telling people.
Im here telling people.
If you're serious and want to find GOd. Email me, we can talk that way, or even in person.
:)
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