Today is the anniversary of the roe v. wade decision that legalized abortion. Of course, pro life people have protested ever since.
There was a small demonstration at city hall today . above is a picture from that
below, there is a story from AP. about what happened in the legislature today...
This is a very hot topic, and one that needs discusison....
TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) — A guest chaplain upset some Kansas House members Thursday with a prayer remembering millions of children that he said were "legally exterminated" by abortion and decrying a national "culture of death."
The Rev. Brian Schieber, pastor at Most Pure Heart of Mary Catholic Church, gave his prayer on the 36th anniversary of the U.S. Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision, which legalized abortion across the nation.
"We remember the over 53 million beautiful, innocent unborn children who have been legally exterminated in our land," he said in his prayer. "By Your grace, guide us to transform this culture of death into a culture of life and a civilization of love."
Legislators who support abortion rights complained afterward, saying the prayer opening the 125-member House's daily session is supposed to be nonpolitical.
"Prayers ought to be more ecumenical," said Rep. Tom Sawyer, a Wichita Democrat. "It's supposed to be a prayer that all 125 people will feel comfortable praying."
But not all legislators were upset.
"It's always like music when you hear the truth," said Sen. Mary Pilcher Cook, an anti-abortion Republican from Shawnee who was in the House gallery.
Schieber acknowledged he wasn't surprised that his prayer caused a stir among some House members. He said he wasn't judging or condemning policy makers but hoping to "stir hearts to conversion."
"The Gospel should rattle us out of our complacency," he said. "We're not supposed to preach what people want to hear. We're supposed to preach the fullness of the Word."
The House's chaplain, the Rev. Eunice Brubaker, associate pastor of the Fairlawn Nazarene Church in Topeka, invited Schieber to give the prayer because she had a scheduling conflict.
Schieber said initially he resisted then, "I thought, 'This may be a very providential moment that God has given me.'"
But Rep. Mike Slattery, a Mission Democrat, said Schieber could have communicated a similar message without being as "startling."
"That prayer was a little more abrasive than necessary," he said.
House Speaker Mike O'Neal, a Hutchinson Republican who opposes abortion, said he didn't know beforehand what Schieber's message would be.
O'Neal said guest pastors usually receive a letter with some guidance but that Schieber apparently didn't because he was invited on short notice. O'Neal said he would review that guidance.
"It was a prayer that caused some concern, and I'm sorry about that," O'Neal said.
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66 comments:
hmmmmmmmmmm.....
Sometimes the truth hurts.
I support a persons right to protest on their own time but the chaplain should not be leading politically charged prayers at a House session.
Sorry Byte, but if you don't want politically charged, you shouldn't have prayer at all. Remember, Seperation of Church and State, right (which, by the way, is WAY overblown I think. It was just an interpatation by T Jefferson).
I don't see anything wrong at all. The guy prayed what he believed, not to be "politically correct". I'd rather have a guy pray his conscience, then to water it down and lie about it. He won't be invited back, even though I commend him on his integrity.
The comment from Rep. Sawyer was just ...stupid. "that all 125 people will feel confortable praying" Hope we don't get a Muslim, or a Hindu in office, because I am pretty sure they both would have a problem w/ any prayer led by a Christian.
@ 8:39
I would support replacing prayer with a moment of silence. Issue resolved.
Bd's idea is sound. I observed something similar in the out door hockey game this year. Before the game held in Chicago on Wrigley Field between the Chicago Blackhawks and Detroit Redwings they played the national anthem followed by Oh Canada. I didn't think much of it due to the fact that some players on both teams are Canadian yet there are also quite a few Russians but their anthem wasn't played. Seemed a bit of a waste of time to me though sinse both teams are American and the game was in America. Then last Saturday I was watching Calgary and Phoenix play on Hockey Night in Canada and noticed the same is not done on foreign soil. Oh Canada played yet there was no Star Spangled Banner. Are Canadians less PC or could it be there is more important things to be doing then making sure everyone is content? The same can be said for polotics I believe. Like another said what of representatives with other beliefs. A moment of silence so all can pray to themselves would be a nice change of pace and probably ruffle fewer feathers.
And no I am not really compairing hockey and religion though I do play on Sundays and Jesus is a fan. Remember he holds the record for all time saves.
We seem to have room for all the imigrants legal and illegal. They sumggle their pregnant across the boarder to give birth on U.S. soil.
But, we don't have room for the native conceived.
Which all leads up to how we view life!
Euthanasia lies at the other end!
With a financially distressed nation and a tax burdened youth.
In the future - You better hope you don't develope a bad cough at over 60yrs old!
In the future - You better hope you don't develope a bad cough at over 60yrs old!
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Correction -- The age you can apply for disability or medicare!
Why do we even have prayers at house sessions? Ever hear of the seperation of church and state?
Still, it's the truth. If you don't like to hear it, quit allowing innocent babies to be legally exterminated.
BD,
There is a lawsuit in Illinois that is saying a "moment of silence" is unconstitutional In schools.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481427,00.html
Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water, so you haven't resolved the issue.
I guess people will have to live with the fact that sometimes, people have different opinions. In this day and age, when people differ, it is those whose scream and complain the most (usually the minority party at the time) who gets their way.
Look at other issues, like gay marriage. Prop 8 passed in Calif. by popular vote, but a minority of people want it over turned because they feel it is not right. Take the Holcolm coal plants. There seems to be a majority of people who think it is ok, but a minority of people rejected it, so they are not built. Last example is local, the dreaded "Lowes" deal. I personally didn't care (I would have voted against it if it had come to a popular vote), but most of the people I have talked to (friends, family, church members) thought it was ok to look into the possibility of it, but it seems like a minority decided the outcome. No sour grapes to me, but it has caused a lot of controversy within the community, split the town, and made many people not trust the actions of our elected officials. I believe in looking out for the little guy, but not when it goes against the will of the people.
Which brings me back to the original issue. If we, the state of Kansas, took a vote on legalized abortion, all 2 million residents, how would it turn out, pro-life, or pro-choice? The only reason those reps were uncomfortable was because they were subjected in putting a face on an aborted baby, making it human, and making them think "is what I think right?"
I'm not going one way or the other in this arguement on abortion I just wonder who gets to tell a knocked up 12 year old rape victim she can't get rid of the baby that may kill her? Or the AIDS patient that will give birth to a baby with AIDS? Or the countless babys that never really live life due to the fact that the mother is all strung out on meth causing them no brain usage. Like I said I feel even an unborn child is a child and I come to tears when I see a child hurt or neglected or read a story of such but it is a touchy subject because like all subjects there are two sides both with very valid points.
ubject because like all subjects there are two sides both with very valid points.
>>>
good point.
I really think a solution could be reached, but it would require both sides to compromise. Neither side is willing to do that, so ... likely it will just continue with more arguing etc.
@8:12 AM
don't look now, Z., but you just made an argument for your case. (from a lawyer's point of view)
Well, I guess I'll jump in.
hot topic, huh? I guess for me as a Christian, the question becomes first of all..."Is it a human soul?".
I personally believe it is. Each must answer that question. For that is the goods you will take before the Great Judge in your hands one day soon. Is it a human soul? Made in the image and likeness of God Almighty. As for the rape issue, I believe statistics prove over and over that upwards of 95% of abortions are for convenience sake.
Who would want a 12 yr. old rape victim to be forced to carry to term? Probably no one in their right mind. But, seriously, that is not the issue. Most abortions are simply convenient. Plus, much of the time cheap, gov't funded. People like Dr. Tiller (Wichita) stand ready to take advantage of the weakest among us. Too bad. Sad. While he lives in luxury. Alas, the color of his money is not green, but blood red. Blood of the innocents. God have mercy on his soul and others like him and help them to see the truth before it's too late.
Meanwhile, where are the Christians? Well, most of them are too weak to even say a word. Can't bring themselves to say a word even anonymously. Not even the so-called preachers. Nominal they are. Broken cisterns that hold no water.
I applaud the crisis pregnancy centers who try desperately on limited budgets to help these young girls. These kids (that's what most of them are) need our help. They need all our help.
Humans are the only part of the creation that turns and kill their unborn. Look, even the dogs, cats, and sparrows have enough sense to care for their young. But, we HIGHLY educated, enlightened humans, well...aren't we something?
D.Q.
Humans are also the only ones with opposable thumbs.
George Tiller is a sociopath who delights in the killing of babies. It's just that he was smart enough to find a legal job that lets him do it without going to prison.
@ 7:24
OK - I read the article.
I am confused by this issue. Why is OK to allow prayer at State or Federal sessions but not in schools? I need to research this, I guess.
I have a question for anti-choice Christians. I assume most are also against gay marriage.
In the U.S. we are afforded freedom of religion including atheism. I assume most Christians believe that atheism is choice that will not get your name written in the book of life.
However Christians do not hold rallies or protests attempting to change policy in the name of a single religion. Why is that commonly accepted yet other moral issues are emphasized based on religious teachings?
Isn't the point of Christianity to make a choice through free will?
"Humans are also the only ones with opposable thumbs"
Uh, I believe Apes and Monkeys have them also, but a lot of people believe we evolved from them as well.
I do like D.Q. statement about humans are the only ones on the planet the consciously tries to kill their offspring BEFORE they are born. Maybe, because we are more "evolved" than apes, we have found a more effective way of going it. Just because it is convenient doesn't make it right. I knew a girl in high school (she was one of those "preppie, rich girl" types) back in the 80's who had 3 (THREE!) abortions in high school (she was an honor grad, but not too smart in the contraception area, I guess). It was just convenient to go down to Tulsa for the afternoon, and have it "taken" care of.
The animal arguement is kind of weak in my opinion seeing as how we don't eat our young as some animals do, I alos don't drink from a toilet or stick my head in the cat box so I like to think I might be a little smarter than my dog. We also don't force ourselves upon each other like many animals do and those of us that do go to jail yet another thing animals don't do. But in support of the animal arguement I also see that animals don't chastise each other for being gay or a different color. They also don't have organized religion and most packs make sure that all share equally in a kill so that none starve. So which way do you want it? Should we follow the animal way of life?
BD,
Having the judge rule the way he did baffles me too, but that is how the judge ruled.
As for your question:
I can't get into a theological discussion with you about right and wrong. Christianity, along with about every other religion, in a round about way, condones gay marriage. It doesn't specifically say only a guy marries a girl; it gives the example of Adam and Eve. Most, if not all religions condone homosexuality. If they don't come out and say it, they usually reference the act in a bad way (make we wonder about all these gay priest today; I've had the same bible for about 20 years, and it hasn't changed any). As for abortion, the bible doesn't say "don't do it" but it does say that God knew from the time in your mother's womb, meaning you had a soul. So "most" Christians get a little perturbed when a baby(fetus) is aborted. I say most, because some don't think that (pro-choice; maybe they got the new, Politically-correct, abridged edition of the Bible I cannot find anywhere that also says homosexuality is ok).
Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with homosexuals or pro choice people. I just don't like it when they try to tell me that my viewpoints are wrong and narrow-minded, just because I do not think like they do and don't agree with their politics. And they (I say they, because I have some gay friends) get really, really pissed off at me because I do not agree with them. I don't get pissed off at them; I just accept them, which even makes them madder (??).
I don't agree in protesting (except maybe verbally here) in public about abortion. I believe it is criminal to blow up an abortion clinic. I believe Prop 8 was a good law, and the people voted for it. I do believe it is the people right to protest the passage of Prop 8, but not to force the Supreme Court to overturn it (Prop 8 was to amend the CA State Constitution, to prevent the courts from overturning it).
I think liberals don't like to be reminded that they support killing babies. The rationale they use to justify it (that it is not "viable" outside the womb) only goes so far, but when forced to see it for what it is, they don't like it.
The truth hurts if you are on the wrong side of it.
Hey I thought Obama said there was no liberal or conservative America just the United States of America. We are all it's people meaning in most cases there is no right or wrong. Why do people always have to label those that disagree with them? Can't we all be humans that agree that for the most part we are always disagree? I'm not a liberal or a conservative nor am I democrat or republican. As we've learned in the past labels just create hate for those that think differently than ourselves. The only label I want applied to me is American which I feel everyone else on this site falls into as well.
Good point
i think the liberal - conservative schism is the biggest problem we have as a nation.
hope obama can pull off bringing them together.
@ 10:41
Thanks for answering my questions and giving me your opinion honestly. I appreciate it.
@ 12:23
Why should Obama be burdened with this task? Shouldn't legislators take it upon themselves to be bipartisan?
Byte
We as American's make the lines and by screaming liberal or conservative every time someone disagrees we make the line thicker. Also I thought this President was supposed to inspire change so wouldn't that be a place to start?
@ 12:50
You are right - the president should inspire change but we have to take some personal accountability in it as well.
People feed off the partisan attacks, elect those who play to a base instead of all Americans and then whine when the lines are drawn.
The cheese cannot stand alone?
I agree
How do you all feel about FOCA?
President Obama has said he will sign FOCA when he gets into office…
FOCA will invalidate laws to protect a woman from unsafe abortion clinics and to ensure that she is informed about abortion.
FOCA will require taxpayers to pay for abortions.
FOCA will require states to allow "partial-birth" and other late-term abortions.
FOCA will require states to allow abortions by non-physicians.
FOCA will bar laws protecting a right of conscientious objection to abortion.
FOCA will deny parents an opportunity to be involved in their minor daughter's abortion decision.
Sign the Fight FOCA (Freedom of Choice Act) petition. A vote for FOCA is a vote against modest, reasonable, widely supported laws that promote and protect women's health, ensure informed consent, protect minors and ensure parental involvement, safeguard rights of conscience, and respect the desire of most citizens not to pay for abortions with their tax dollars. It is the most radical and extreme abortion legislation ever considered in the US and is supported by our soon to be President Obama.
http://www.fightfoca.com/
We are all it's people meaning in most cases there is no right or wrong.
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Well in a few more generations there won't be an America!
Obama already signed the FOCA thing this morning. So much for no liberals and no conservatives.
But you people put him in office knowing he was pro abortion, anti gun, and Anti America, so now you must live with the consequences.
I'm not sure the one he signed today is FOCA is it? I didn't think it was a bill yet? I could be wrong?
January 23, 2009 2:15 PM
Ive been screaming that very thing for some time now. There is getting to be less and less America every day.
He has not signed it yet, and yesterday declined to make comment about it specifically.
Many political pundits think he will eventually.
I did a search on the net, and found both sides doing various hysterics about it.
anyways, ... here is what has actually happened
Rally marks Roe v. Wade anniversary, new president
By BRIAN WESTLEY
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) — Tens of thousands of abortion opponents rallied Thursday on the National Mall to mark the 36th anniversary of Roe v. Wade amid concerns they could face political setbacks under the new president.
The rally and subsequent march to the Supreme Court came two days after the swearing-in of President Barack Obama, which many demonstrators said emphasized the need to become more vocal with their message.
Among those attending the rally marking the 1973 ruling that legalized abortion was Kirk Kramer of Cottage City, Md., who held up a sign reading: "The Audacity Of Hope: No More Roe."
Kramer, a Democrat, said he has mixed feelings about Obama. He supports the president's position on Iraq but said he was concerned about statements Obama made during the campaign indicating support for the Freedom of Choice Act, which would overrule many state-level restrictions on access to abortion.
"Our country is better than the war we have fought in Iraq and we are better than legalizing abortion," he said.
In a letter posted on their Web site, organizers invited Obama to speak at Thursday's rally.
"America needs your strong leadership as president of all the people to stop the intentional killing of an estimated 3,000 pre-born boys and girls each day and the brutalizing of mind, heart and body of pregnant mothers," the letter states.
Obama, who did not attend the rally, issued a statement Thursday saying the government "should not intrude on our most private family matters" and reaffirming his support for abortion rights.
"While this is a sensitive and often divisive issue, no matter what our views, we are united in our determination to prevent unintended pregnancies, reduce the need for abortion, and support women and families in the choices they make," Obama said.
A small group of abortion-rights supporters also gathered in front of the Supreme Court on Thursday.
Lisa King of Washington, D.C., said she is disappointed that Obama did not immediately move to overturn the so-called "global gag rule," which denies U.S. funds to any international family planning group that provides abortion-related services or information.
"I'm just waiting and seeing really," King said. "I don't have any huge expectations just because he's a Democrat."
She said she worries the abortion issue will be a low priority, given all the other problems Obama faces.
An article from Yahoo:
President Barack Obama on Friday quietly ended the Bush administration's ban on giving federal money to international groups that perform abortions or provide information on the option. Liberal groups welcomed the decision, while abortion rights foes criticized the president.
---------------------------------
Way to go President Obama - Federal money for other countries abortions now too!!! Aren't all you Obama supporter's proud now. Our country is in a financial crisis and he's giving it away for abortions in other countries. Yeah!
Barack is a puppet on a string for the liberal left wing. They say jump he asks , how high? There will be many things done that we will regret. Pray and continue to pray for our great country.
See, I think drugs have done some good things for us, I really do, and if you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a favor. Go home tonight and take all your albums, all your tapes, and all your CDs and burn 'em. Cause you know what? The musicians who made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years? Rrrrreal fuckin' high on drugs.
I'll try to open my third eye
Nobody escapes Samsara, not even James Jordan
Consrvatives want to save the very fetuses that grow up and end up in the electric chair
See, I think drugs have done some good things for us, I really do, and if you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a favor. Go home tonight and take all your albums, all your tapes, and all your CDs and burn 'em. Cause you know what? The musicians who made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years? Rrrrreal fuckin' high on drugs.
Cool you can quote Tool. And so relevant to the conversation. Oh yeah your right drugs are great for the music industry just ask, Hendrix, Nirvana, Pantera, Korn, Drowning Pool, Sublime... do I really need to go on? Hell even the man you quote left Tool to go to rehab before becoming inspired to create Perfect Circle. But hey what do I know? I mean look how peaceful the last Woodstock was. I bet none of those people were on drugs. (Sarcasm)
Christians, Muslims and Jews are fucking idiots. Why pray to a god who is an asshole? It (he or she) doesn't exist.
How can something that doesn't exhist be an @$$hole? Think much there Einstein? (Sarcasm once again)
The next two don't even make any sense?
Consrvatives want to save the very fetuses that grow up and end up in the electric chair
Apparently the liberals missed one then huh?
I think that this person who posted all this nonsense proves my Grandpa right that nothing good happens after 1 am.
It does seem weird that the conservatives who are so set against abortion because they say it kills people are also the ones in favor of the death penalty and wars.
I don't think it has anything to do with protecting life. I think it is all about telling other people what they can and cannot do.
The republican party attracts control freaks. They should take care of their own lives before they concern themselves with other peoples' business.
The post from Jan 23 1:22PM about how it "requires this and that" is just weird, but is the standard conservative doublespeak.
Doing away with FOCA doesn't "require" anything. It just stops prohibiting it. It doesn't "require" information about abortion. To say that it does is dishonest.
Also, JJ, could you please delete the "F" bombs from the thread?
I don't think it has anything to do with protecting life. I think it is all about telling other people what they can and cannot do.
>>>
Yea, i guess it is pretty rotten of government to tell you you cant kill a person.
A Dutch doctor - politician suggested allowing parents to terminate babies up to two years old - terminate means murder, or abort - if they were found to have birth defects.
How far off do you think that is.
and then, those old people, who just take up bed space in nursing homes and use up resources ... why not terminate them.. especially if they can't afford to pay for it.
Lets have some real choice.
but is the standard conservative doublespeak.
Doing away with FOCA doesn't "require" anything. It just stops prohibiting it. It doesn't "require"
>>>
Talk about double speak.
It would not allow anti abortion people to put any restrictions whatever on abortion. Or to even give out information about it.
Thats like saying a law against stealing doesnt require you to not steal....
All nursing homes are is for family members to stick their aging sick parents in and not have to take care of them.
The drunk angry person made a good point: Why is it OK for state executions, killing Iraqi civilians, killing American soldiers needlessly or killing people who cannot receive health care OK but abortion is the new holocaust? Hypocrites.
i do not get it,, why is bytedaily calling someone a drunk angry person, is it becase she does not agree
Or maybe BD made a good point and you can't swallow that.
But. the reality of the whole debate comes down to the reason we can post on this blog!
We are here by the grace of God and the conviction of our Mother and Father. But primarily the conviction of our Mother!
I wonder what you would have to say if someone had convinced her to do something other than carry you to term?
How sad it is to pray on people at their time of need or their weakest time!
"It does seem weird that the conservatives who are so set against abortion because they say it kills people are also the ones in favor of the death penalty and wars.
I don't think it has anything to do with protecting life. I think it is all about telling other people what they can and cannot do."
You forgot one word... INNOCENT. Abortion kills INNOCENT people, whereas the death penalty kills MURDERERS. Kinda like those of you who flushed your baby down the toilet because you couldn't be bothered with it. You probably didn't know who the baby daddy was anyway, and didn't want to go on the Maury show to have a DNA test ran. It was so much simpler just to murder it.
QUOTE-You forgot one word... INNOCENT. Abortion kills INNOCENT people, whereas the death penalty kills MURDERERS.
Yes, But how many people have spent years in prison to be released after DNA proved they didn't do it- Happens all the time!
Makes you wonder how many INNOCENT people have been killed!
We as Christians, (for thoise of us that claim the name,) aren't doing a very good job at caring for the countless unwanted, unloved, neglected, abused... children that are already alive. That is perhaps a greater sin than any abortion...
DNA proved they didn't do it- Happens all the time!
Like 3 out of 300 million people every few years.
its very rare really.
When it does happen its news ... i think maybe once last year ..
just saying its pretty rare.
We as Christians, (for those of us that claim the name,)
Thou Shalt not Kill!
(BTW that includes yourself)
"(BTW that includes yourself)"
An eye for an eye. An innocent baby never hurt anyone!
Mat 5:38 You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
As in if you are a Christian to quote Moses you are overlooking what Jesus asks, right?
I'm gonna guess that NONE of you that are against abortions have ever had to make that decision. We shouldn't make them illegal but to a point there is less of a need. Many of the people that are against abortions are also against teaching birthcontrol in schools, are against birth control period. What we need is MORE education. Not all parents are willing to talk to their children about such issues and yet we made more laws that does not allow a young woman to go get birthcontrol without parental consent. Why is that? Evidently some of these young ladies have family that does not have open communication. Sad...
Or perhaps, like many young people, she does not want her family to know she is sexually active.
I'm not for abortion on demand, to use as a mean for birthcontrol. however there must be some compromise. Don't judge these ladies for a decision they have made. Chances are you'll never know how difficult it was for her to come to the decision she has made.
however there must be some compromise.
>>
YES !
The current all or nothing approach clearly isnt working, and only makes it worse.
but neither side seems willing to come to the table.
i may post more about this ..
As in if you are a Christian to quote Moses you are overlooking what Jesus asks, right?
Good Point!
But then your reasoning would be how can someone be in the military and kill the enemy and be a Christian?
So JJ you like these debates.
What say you?
So JJ you like these debates.
What say you?
>>>
It does not say thou shall not kill, it says thou shall not murder.
There are instances where killing is justified, while there are no instances of murder being justified.
so what is the difference between killing and murder.
My son was concieved after 1 am. He wasn't aborted. And it would make any Ark Citian proud to watch him play football.
"Many of the people that are against abortions are also against teaching birthcontrol in schools, are against birth control period."
Any statistics to back that up, or did you just pull those facts out of thin air? I am against abortion except where rape, incest, or danger to the mother is concerned, and I believe kids should be taught about sex and birth control in school as well as at home.
I am a product of an unwanted pregnancy, yet I was carried to term, much to the dismay of the liberals on this blog, and given up for adoption. I turned out much better than I would have if I'd stayed with my birth mother, and a WHOLE lot better than if I'd been cut into little pieces and thrown out with the evening trash.
Adoption should be the second recourse for an unwanted pregnancy, right behind stepping up and taking some responsibility for your actions.
@9:41
That is a powerful testimony.
I'm not for abortion on demand, to use as a mean for birthcontrol. however there must be some compromise. Don't judge these ladies for a decision they have made. Chances are you'll never know how difficult it was for her to come to the decision she has made.
January 25, 2009 7:37 PM
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Thankyou... well said. (From one who knows)
@9:41 PM
Thank you for sharing.
D.Q.
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